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Mattaphysics

My first Anniversary clock!

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I picked up this Kundo on the bay. Got a nice deal on er with the owner. It's a beaut, definitely over-oiled, the suspension spring looks pretty good for its age. She doesn't want to run though. Partially because the click looks on the wrong side, it won't keep the mainspring wound. Needs a polish, it did come with the correct glass. Any idea on the date? It was made in West Germany so I'm guessing around the 70's? It doesn't say the model anywhere though. I really fancy it though and I can't wait to fix it up!
 
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If these clocks interest you I very much recommend getting the book the 'Horolovar 400 Day Clock repair guide' by Charles Terewilliger and H.W. Ellison.

Looking in this book you are correct that it is circa 1970, it is a Kieninger & Obergfell Miniature / Midget clock and uses 0.0023" (0.058mm) Horolovar suspension wire.

The book will give you drawings to set up the wire as setup is millimeter critical.

Yours also appears to be missing the cover that screws onto the back plate covering the suspension wire, but this seems to be a common issue and wont stop it working.

You will need a mainspring winder to remove the spring as just pulling it out like you can on larger clocks will damage this spring.

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This part has been set wrong. It should be in line with the pallet tail. Looks like just below the block the s/spring is twisted. These clocks are extremely temperamental, they run on very little oil, the m/spring is very powerful. Always fit a new s/spring. The clock must be in beat or it will stop, to set it in beat (quick description) after the pallets release a tooth the pendulum must carry on at the same distance both ways. There is a tool you could buy to help in setting up the beat. I found it to be very good.  Here is a photo of that tool.

Tmuir has explained in good detail about these clocks.

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Hi Metta P   The guys hit the nail on the head  these are VERY tempramental and must be spot on to work correctly. I have collected  and repaired quite a few of these The book as mentioned by Tmuir is a must (available thro Cousins uk) and can save hours of head scratching  the tool though not essential

is the best thing for adjusting the top block and therefore the beat. Meadows and Passmore have in their catalogue a guide form for fitting under the suspension to enable you to calculate the overswing which must be equal on both ends of the swing. I love these clocks they are both simple and difficult in equal measure. Having changed the suspension and set up the top block which is wrong and in line with the pattet tail as mentioned position the pallet fork on the suspension spring as per the book nip up the screws dont over tighten as you can damage the spring. There should be a very small amount of movement between the sides of the pallet tail and the sided of the fork not too much or tool little

I have twillerger latesd ediition so if you need any info let me know (message) . Have fun they are nice clocks but as Old H says watch the mainspring they are strong. Joe Collins build a spring remover they are quite simple to make  and save your fingers.   good luck you will enjoy the experience. 

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Well spotted Oldhippy, I completely missed that.

I guess that is the difference between years of working on clocks and me just still learning

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Many thanks all! Yes now that I've removed the s/spring you can tell it's wrong as it is parallel with the pallet tail. I got lucky as the mainspring was already unwound. Otherwise I wouldn't have attempted anything. I figure these being 400 day clocks then it stands to reason their mainspring must be 10x or more powerful as any other mainspring. Is it because of the thickness combined with it being in such an enclosed space?

I got this because my grandparents had one of these and I remember as a kid just looking at it and really enjoying it. It was an interesting horological piece, yet I didn't know that at the time. I did know it was pretty calming. I cannot wait to get it running again! I'm currently working on cleaning it up. I don't have clock tools per se but I do have my watch tools which will do for now.

I notice the plates on these look solid and more think than regular clock plates so it seems like they'll last a while. Thanks again all. With the s/spring should I first try just putting the head in it's proper position? While I await s/springs to come (I found it takes .0023") I'll see for schatz n giggles if it works. Now I'm going to get the horolovar and some say specifically for a schatz or kieninger obergfell, are they different lengths? Or are sellers trying to just marketing them that way so people find them? Well I've gone on quite enough. Thanks to all again! This is the most valuable resource ever, this forum.

One last thing. It looks as if the click spring is either wrong or bent because when it was together it was not holding tension on the click do you couldn't wind it. I had to push the spring up to get it to stay wound. Should I just bend it or is it wrong? Please see photosd3acd1530fd542b1d19998e0dbd8921a.jpg3bbb641ef5b59dad8224705b0c1e1821.jpgdbf9624683c7536d2c0449b772d33444.jpg652747aad6d8b7f9b933d8192f22663a.jpg

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That click spring should just bend out, just be carefull and don't snap it. If you find it is lifeless after bending it out then you will need to replace it. Those m/springs are very thick and can do all sorts of damage, not just to the clock but to your hand, wrist or arm. 

When you have repaired it just the tiniest drop of oil each side of the pallet tail just inside the pallet forks will stop any fluttering or jerking that might happen.  

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 Try just bending out the click spring and see if it works, but it may of lost it's tension, also the ratchet wheel is the wrong way round the click should sit nicely in it, unsure if you just placed it wrong for the photo, or if someone else placed it on backwards

The suspension spring is shot, you will not get the clock working with it.

When you buy the suspension springs they will be too long and will need to be cut to size, there is no way of knowing that your existing spring has everything placed correctly on it without the book.

When you get the s / spring and have the book it will have a full size drawing showing the spring and the parts to be fitted to it. Lay the spring onto the page, cut it to size and attach all the parts to the spring. If you are off by a couple of millimeters it won't work correctly.

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Ok so what is the difference between Rabuska's book and Terwillger's? Are the same thing or does one have pictures that the other doesn't? Thanks again!

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I'm not familiar with Rabuska's book so had to look it up.

But putting it simply Terwillger's book is published by Horolovar which is the company that also makes the replacement suspension springs and mainsprings for anniversary clocks, it is considered 'The bible' for Anniversary clocks.

It is also 237 pages compared to 98 pages for Rabuska's. I'm not saying Rabuska's book isn't good as I don't know as I've not read it, but if I was only going to get one book I would get the Horolovar book as it gives setup suspension spring drawings for pretty much all anniversary clocks.

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Ok then that settles that. Yeah I thought I saw it titled Horolovar 400 day clock repair so it stands to reason that it's probably the most informative.

I was also looking on one of my favorite sites on the net: clockworks.com I'm not sure if you're familiar with it but it has a wonderful clock repair kit with a comprehensive e-book with a repair guide for cuckoo clocks, anniversary clocks, spring driven and weight driven clock repair. Also with that you get an oiler with oil, cleaning solution, visor, level, brass brush, hand/gear puller and a mainspring letdown key all for $69. Seems like a great deal for all that and I'm fairly certain is not all Chinese crap either.

I need to get a staking set and anvil, a better hammer, decent screwdrivers, (also unsure as to what the best ones for clock repair are) bushings and the necessary tools to do that work, all at a smaller price point.

I don't have the funds to shell out atm for everything I want. Also I'm only in the hobby phase for now. I am, more and more coming to truly enjoy working on clocks and watches and am considering doing this for a source of income. When you can turn a hobby into a job it's a win-win.

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Ok gents, I've got the suspension springs. If someone would happen to have the measurements needed because I've been waiting to see this clock going! Thanks for your most valuable help.

I've included pics of the old spring and the new one, along with measurements of each. I believe this is correct the round end is the head and the rectangular is the bottom. The previous owner had them reversed. Any help is appreciated thanks!4492000493f002bcc5ba3109201f58d6.jpgc37693bd9c067a74fef6c6bb2952f8f5.jpg

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So after a couple hours tinkering trying to find the right length for the spring, getting it to run for a minute or two then stopping and looking at it again I think I finally realized something.

The top part that the the head of the spring fits into is supposed to run parallel with the pallet so it can easily fit into the space and onto the verge isn't it? Because it caused me headache and heartache when my first spring bent and crapped out on me.6cc9b39756e059c3ba026ec105eeb38f.jpg

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Are you sure it is not rubbing or touching around here. How have you gone about oiling the movement? Are you sure, it is in beat. As soon as a tooth escapes the pendulum, (balls) carry on turning. It is vital they turn the same amount both ways. If not the clock will stop because it is out of beat? The pallet tail should be loose in the pallet fork, a tiny gap on each side. The tiniest amount of oil on each side of the tail where it touches the fork (use your oiler you use for watch escapements) The pallet fork must be the correct distance from the top block and parallel unless given different in the 400 day book.   The clock must be level which you can tell by the end of the pendulum in the base cup.

 

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Hi  What I made was a board with leveling screws in the corners so it can be set absolutely level using a spirit level having set up the clock watch for the over swing it should be the same in both directions.  There is an app on the apple store for Ilphone for a spirit level which gives it in both  directions which is useful  and a great deal of patience

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If empathy helps at all, I’m having exactly the same problems with an old Gustav Becker.  First time I’ve tried to fix a torsion clock (old fusees and weight-driven long case clocks are more me).  But my father in law bought the Becker and, when it didn’t work, decided I might be able to fix it.

It’s clearly had a hard life before it came to us:   I’ve sorted a broken spring hook in the barrel which, when it let go, stripped one set of teeth and bent some others, and the going train now runs fine.  I’ve got new suspension springs, but now I find someone’s also been at the pallets so, after trying a few times to get the thing in beat, I’m waiting for delivery of the Horolovar repair manual to get me on the right track.

I’ll let you know how things turn out.

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On those really old 400 day clocks you need to check the escape wheel teeth, the tips should be square and not worn on one side, look out for any burr, with care that needs to be removed with a stone.

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I promised to let you know how things went with the Gustav Becker that I mentioned yesterday. 

I'm fortunate in having an horology centre reasonably close to me, with weekly sessions, and an instructor in attendance.  I took the clock along today and had it looked at.  As I feared, the pallets were 'out', courtesy of a former 'repairer', but an hour or so of me adjusting them (the instructor says what's needed and then leaves you to get on with it) has now resulted back home in 6 hours of continuous running, the first time it was set-up.  Woohoo!

As a guy at another bench at the centre said, as I was grumbling about having to disassemble the whole clock at home several times for a number of failed adjustments during the week (having discovered you can't take just the pallet out on these clocks, the plates have to come apart each time), it does get easier as you get more familiar with it. 

However, I kicked myself today when the instructor pointed out that, during the trial-and-error pallet adjustment (I didn't have the manual or any means of actually measuring the pallet drop etc.), I only needed to put in the pallet, escape wheel and fourth wheel to see if it was going to work. 

Pretty obvious, really, but why hadn't I thought of that, when I'd been laboriously putting everything back together each time I'd worked on it?

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Its always a job to diagnose a fault without seeing the movement. Nice to know you have it sorted.

Pushing on the wheel train to act as its power can give a false impression on how the movement will act. I know it takes longer but it is best to have everything in its correct place.  

 

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