Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Marc said:

An oleophilic treatment would actually cause the oil to spread out

2 hours ago, Marc said:

The reason an oleophobic surface prevents spreading

Possibly just me but I'm having a hard time following along.

The same guys also state: "Once parts have been epilamed, the oil droplet remains anchored to the spot" and this is exactly what we're looking for. If epilame was working like a wax-like repellant the droplet wouldn't remain anchored.

EDIT: Just noticed that the word "oleophilic" is different from "oleophobic" which makes it much easier to follow along 🤣

Edited by VWatchie
Posted (edited)

Now I'm completely confused, it would appear that theĀ epilameĀ  isĀ oleophobicĀ  as @MarcĀ states:

image.png.fd8ae6e34bfe67692d351dbebbfcfbc6.png

ThisĀ oleophobicĀ  behavior can be seen as beading of the droplet (as above) which stops the oil spreading which is supported by what we observe on treated/untreated cap stones (for example), but as @VWatchieĀ states this should make the drops more mobile and is supported by the literature:

image.thumb.png.e2de799ce2ffecac85c5232c3aaf2d4c.png

Ā 

A review on control of droplet motion based on wettability modulation principles design strategies recent progress and applications.pdf

Ā 

However the whole point is that we have less mobile oil so anĀ oleophobicĀ  would see to be the opposite of what we want. In fact this beading and high mobility are desirable properties in things like smart phone covers, see below.Ā  I am fairly sure thatĀ epilame doesn't make the droplets more mobile, so maybe its a strange coating with dual properties that are both oleophobic (beading) and cohesive/adhesive resulting in low mobility?? This may explain the high price??

Ā 

image.thumb.png.cd3b6096339bd32c63e9a828a469ae9c.png

Edited by Waggy
Added literature
  • Like 1
Posted
4 hours ago, Waggy said:

Maybe I'm over simplifying this and I'm a little late to the discussion, but just by my looking at oil when I use it on a treated cap jewelĀ  the oil stays in one nice bubble, but when I don't it spreads out to the edges of the jewel.

I'm not sure (but could well be wrong) but the analogy of a waxed car and rain is inaccurate in this case, the wax is very hydrophobic and repels the water, however, the process epilame works by is a different physical process based upon cohesion/adhesion (oleophilic) not repulsion (oleophobic)Ā  at least as far as I have read/observed.

If one were to use a oleophobic substance equivalent to wax (hydrophobic) then one would need to create a donut shape to fence in the oil, however if one used such a strategy with a epilame which isĀ oleophilic then the oil would sit on the ring of the donut and not in the 'donut hole', exactly where you don't want it.

Even if the oil is smeared then theĀ oleophilic epilame should pull it back to the center (see diagram below).

image.thumb.png.5a6393ddade6e492547e6d542376008d.png

Reference

For interest the chemical inĀ epilame is 2-(PERFLUOROHEXYL) ETHYL METHACRYLATE, CAS NO: 2144-53-8

Out of curiosity I looked at the price of buying this in the real world i.e. from a bulk chemical supplier, and for once it is about the same price as buying in the watchĀ 

1 hour ago, Marc said:

According to these guys "Coating watch parts with a thin, even monolayer of epilame provides an effective oleophobic barrier that halts oil spread in its tracks." Which is exactly the same process that causes water beading on a waxed car.

An oleophilic treatment would actually cause the oil to spread out to as thin a layer as possible as every oil molecule would try and come into contact with the oleophilic surface.

The reason an oleophobic surface prevents spreading is because the oil behaves in such a way as to have as little contact with the treated surface as possible.

Ā 

This makes much more sense now, the oil is withdrawing itself to make as little contact with the epilame as possible. Same principle as wax on a car creates a hyrophobic surface that makes the cohesive properties of water molecules pull together.Ā  The water beads run off only when under the influence of gravity but still remain cohesively beaded up. And as mentioned earlier a pivot would keep the oil in place on a cap jewel.Ā  Epilame on an escapement would be a different scenario, there is nothing to hold the oil in position if gravity tugs at the bead to move, plus the escape teeth pull the oil about Maybe this is why its suggested to run the watch for a short while to remove the epilame to make two oleophobic surfaces either side of the oil, creating a ring of fire šŸ”„ around it šŸ˜…

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

Now I'm completely confused, it would appear that theĀ epilameĀ  isĀ oleophobicĀ  as @MarcĀ states:

image.png.fd8ae6e34bfe67692d351dbebbfcfbc6.png

ThisĀ oleophobicĀ  behavior can be seen as beading of the droplet (as above) which stops the oil spreading which is supported by what we observe on treated/untreated cap stones (for example), but as @VWatchieĀ states this should make the drops more mobile and is supported by the literature:

image.thumb.png.e2de799ce2ffecac85c5232c3aaf2d4c.png

Ā 

A review on control of droplet motion based on wettability modulation principles design strategies recent progress and applications.pdf 3.8 MBĀ Ā·Ā 0 downloads

Ā 

However the whole point is that we have less mobile oil so anĀ oleophobicĀ  would see to be the opposite of what we want. In fact this beading and high mobility are desirable properties in things like smart phone covers, see below.Ā  I am fairly sure thatĀ epilame doesn't make the droplets more mobile, so maybe its a strange coating with dual properties that are both oleophobic (beading) and cohesive/adhesive resulting in low mobility?? This may explain the high price??

Ā 

image.thumb.png.cd3b6096339bd32c63e9a828a469ae9c.png

The oil is repelled by every surface of the epilame even that which it sits upon. So the oil pulls together to make as little contact with it as possible, but the oil cant float above that area, it can only sit there on top of it. Under gravity the oil could potentially run away as an oil bead, unless the epilame has an adhesive property which i dont think it does ? So something else keeps it in position ie a pivot under a cap jewel . But that isn't the case in a pallet jewel situation.Ā 

Posted
2 hours ago, Marc said:

The reason an oleophobic surface prevents spreading is because the oil behaves in such a way as to have as little contact with the treated surface as possible.

But it also makes it seem less susceptible to gravity. If you place a droplet of oil on an epilame-treated surface the droplet of oil will still stay in place even if you then flip the surface from a horizontal to a vertical position. That is, theĀ oil droplet remains anchored, and that's the purpose of epilame. If it was just a matter of creating an oleophobic surface we could probably use other, less expensive, methods!?

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

I am fairly sure thatĀ epilame doesn't make the droplets more mobile, so maybe its a strange coating with dual properties that are both oleophobic (beading) and cohesive/adhesive resulting in low mobility?? This may explain the high price??

I don't know @WaggyĀ but my gut feeling tells me you're spot on (pun intended!). I believe the oleophobic property is a side effect of epilame which is designed to keep the oil anchored.

Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

But it also makes it seem less susceptible to gravity. If you place a droplet of oil on an epilame-treated surface the droplet of oil will still stay in place even if you then flip the surface from a horizontal to a vertical position. That is, theĀ oil droplet remains anchored, and that's the purpose of epilame. If it was just a matter of creating an oleophobic surface we could probably use other, less expensive, methods!?

Might that be the viscous nature of oil resisting gravity HĀ  ,Ā  we have been comparing water and hydrophobic surfaces which are similar in principle but water is much less viscous than oil. I guess what we trying to discover is if epilame also has an adhesive trait as well as being oleophobic. Plus the oil dropet has very little mass for gravity to work on, like watching tiny water beads that can grip onto vertical glass until they are connected together to increase their mass then run down. Gravity isn't the only factor at play when oil is placed on pallet stones. The oil receives a lot of bashing that may push it out of position ? Thinking about it if the oil stays in position for 10 minutes enough time for the escape wheel to scrape off the epilame , thenĀ  a walled in lubrication has been achieved,Ā  the epilame is no longer beneath the oil ( possibly mixed into the oil )

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

If we use the rub-off epilame method of pallet stones (run dry for a few minutes before applying the oil) where will the oil go/be transported when it is pushed away from the impulse surface by the escape wheel teeth? Onto the epilame-treated sections of the pallet! Once the oil has been applied/transported to theĀ epilame-treated sections of the pallet where will it then go? Nowhere as the oil will remain on the epilame. So, perhaps the run-dry method defeats its intended purpose leaving the pallet impulse surfaces dry!?

If, on the other hand, we do not remove the epilame from the pallet stones where the escape wheel teeth come in contact with them I'd expect more oil to remain where we want it and need it.

23 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I guess what we trying to discover is if epilame also has an adhesive trait as well as being oleophobic.

Yes, I agree, that is the question, and my gut feeling tells me that is exactly the case. Epilame was created to have an adhesive trait and the oleophobic property is just a side effect.

Ā 

Edited by VWatchie
Posted
8 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

If we use the rub-off epilame method of pallet stones (run dry for a few minutes before applying the epilame) where will the oil go/be transported when it is pushed away from the impulse surface by the escape wheel teeth? Onto the epilame-treated sections of the pallet! Once the oil has been applied/transported to theĀ epilame-treated sections of the pallet where will it then go? Nowhere as the oil will remain on the epilame. So, perhaps the run-dry method defeats its intended purpose leaving the pallet impulse surfaces dry!?

If, on the other hand, we do not remove the epilame from the pallet stones where the escape wheel teeth come in contact with them I'd expect more oil to remain where we want it and need it.

Yes, I agree, that is the question, and my gut feeling tells me that is exactly the case. Epilame was created to have an adhesive trait and the oleophobic property is just a side effect.

Ā 

The epilame under the oil will also be removedĀ 

5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The epilame under the oil will also be removedĀ 

Unless the oil makes a barrier between the epilame and the escape teeth šŸ˜…

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The epilame under the oil will also be removedĀ 

Unless the oil makes a barrier between the epilame and the escape teeth šŸ˜…

I think i need two strong coffees now 🤣

  • Haha 1
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The epilame under the oil will also be removedĀ 

Not sure I follow along. As I stated in one of my previous posts, the epilame will remain intact between rubbing parts as long as the surface is lubricated by oil or grease.

Epilametreatedsurface.jpg.5e81b32776b01b612907dc0570a56b93.jpg

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but note how the epilame-treated surface is illustrated in @Waggy's post. It looks like the oil is exposed to a binder (epilame!) so that it can't move sideways.

Edited by VWatchie
  • Like 1
Posted
1 minute ago, VWatchie said:

Ā 

Epilametreatedsurface.jpg.5e81b32776b01b612907dc0570a56b93.jpg

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but note how the epilame-treated surface is illustrated in @Waggy's post. It looks like the oil is exposed to a binder (epilame!) so that it can't move sideways.

I read that same article last night  H.  I think epilame is too much headache for me, sources aren't always accurate, some conflicting. Such is the GRAVITY of this situation, Is it ok if i just STICK  to a thixotropic oil 🤣

  • Haha 1
Posted
1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Is it ok if i just STICK  to a thixotropic oil 🤣

Sure! Some very accomplished repairers never use epilame! I have often wondered if it is worth the trouble. Not using epilame will shorten the service intervals though, but that could be better perhaps both for the owner and the repairer!?

Speaking of oiling, I just read this:

After WWII in the 1950s the first Synthetic Oils came on the market.
Most watchmakers did not rush to use these oils since they were bad
for business now that the watch serviced with Synthetic oil would
not come back to him for service for another 5-7 years he would lose a
lot of income. ~Ofrei.com
Ā 

Anyway,Ā I wouldn't be surprised if it would be more correct to think of epilame as a binder rather than a repellant. Until convinced otherwise that's how I will think of epilame.

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Not sure I follow along. As I stated in one of my previous posts, the epilame will remain intact between rubbing parts as long as the surface is lubricated by oil or

Yes i did eventually realise that the oil will act as a barrier, I'm sure the discussion will continue. Ive had two oleophobic coffees ( added coconut ) and in the meantime i have this just delivered to take my mind off epilame for the time being. My favourite type of dial, its a beautiful looking watch traditional English made and it runs,Ā  the ticktock is phenomenal,Ā  i can hear it across my living room .Ā  You wont believe how much it was.

17143898776141916963494073605447.jpg

34 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Sure! Some very accomplished repairers never use epilame! I have often wondered if it is worth the trouble. Not using epilame will shorten the service intervals though, but that could be better perhaps both for the owner and the repairer!?

Speaking of oiling, I just read this:

After WWII in the 1950s the first Synthetic Oils came on the market.
Most watchmakers did not rush to use these oils since they were bad
for business now that the watch serviced with Synthetic oil would
not come back to him for service for another 5-7 years he would lose a
lot of income. ~Ofrei.com
Ā 

Anyway,Ā I wouldn't be surprised if it would be more correct to think of epilame as a binder rather than a repellant. Until convinced otherwise that's how I will think of epilame.

Thats interesting about synthetic oils , i thought the same, going from a 2 year service to 5 years is a big drop in income for service folk.Ā  I expect some did well when they embraced the use of synthetic,Ā  probably drawing in more customers than those that didn't use the new fangled substances , i bet fairly short lived though. The more frequent service makes more sense to me, not for just the service but for the regular check up inspections that might pick up impending faults. As far as epilame goes, wouldn't it be great to be able to fumigate the complete movement in a sealed jar of heated stearic acid, šŸ¤” now theres a thought šŸ˜….

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
  • Like 1
Posted
13 hours ago, Waggy said:

chemical inĀ epilame

one little minor problem with your chemistry experiment here which is what exactly is epilam? In other words is it an exact substance with the chemical you specify or is it a term? For instance originally it was steric acid either dissolved in some sort of solvent or it was applied by vaporizing it. Then now it's all kinds of different things the watch companies all have different ideas there's a whole bunch of patents. So is not always an exact substance.

Ā 

11 hours ago, VWatchie said:

It is also consistent with my observations. Oil placed at a fixed point on a treated surface is difficult to move from that point.

let me snip out a image from the patent that I attached up above. Notice I highlighted something it seems to disagree with your evaluation.

image.png.9dffd08d87ba59f32e4c17980ded7de4.png

Ā 

  • Like 3
Posted
1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

one little minor problem with your chemistry experiment here which is what exactly is epilam? In other words is it an exact substance with the chemical you specify or is it a term? For instance originally it was steric acid either dissolved in some sort of solvent or it was applied by vaporizing it. Then now it's all kinds of different things the watch companies all have different ideas there's a whole bunch of patents. So is not always an exact substance.

Ā 

let me snip out a image from the patent that I attached up above. Notice I highlighted something it seems to disagree with your evaluation.

image.png.9dffd08d87ba59f32e4c17980ded7de4.png

Ā 

The full article on that patent is a really interesting odd read. I wasn't aware that even a specific set of instructions on the use of a product could be patented. Does that mean that if i can prove that walking backwards will reduce shoe wear by up to 30% then i can patent that idea, and sue in court anyone i catch doing it ?

Posted
4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

patent that idea,

you should go to the European patent office and look up watch patents. I'm guessing it's probably impossible to make anything related to watches without stepping on somebody's patent it's good that they expire with time. They've literally as far as I can tell patented everything and anything. this is why is pointing out their other formulas for the Epilam I'm pretty sure Rolex might have their own formula for instance.

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

if i can prove that walking backwards will reduce shoe wear by up to 30% then i can patent that idea, and sue in court anyone i catch doing it ?

somewhere in the universe I was once reading things that were rejected for patents for basically this kind of thing. So yes there is rules on what can and cannot be patented but I'm sure things fall through the cracks.

Ā 

  • Like 1
Posted
9 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

you should go to the European patent office and look up watch patents. I'm guessing it's probably impossible to make anything related to watches without stepping on somebody's patent it's good that they expire with time. They've literally as far as I can tell patented everything and anything. this is why is pointing out their other formulas for the Epilam I'm pretty sure Rolex might have their own formula for instance.

somewhere in the universe I was once reading things that were rejected for patents for basically this kind of thing. So yes there is rules on what can and cannot be patented but I'm sure things fall through the cracks.

Ā 

Drat and double drat i was looking forward to the royalties on that idea.

  • Haha 1
Posted
52 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

I agree with @JohnR725. Oil on an epilamed surface is essentially the same as water on a waxed surface. The same physical properties are at work (surface tension vs. adhesion).Ā 

I kind of think the same, the surface under the oil is the same as the surface around the oil. Can epilame both repel and attract , that doesn't quite make sense in simple terms, but is it more complicated than that.

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I kind of think the same, the surface under the oil is the same as the surface around the oil. Can epilame both repel and attract , that doesn't quite make sense in simple terms, but is it more complicated than that.

When cohesive forces within a liquid are stronger than the adhesive forces of a surface then surface tension is high causing the liquid to bead up. SoĀ  an applied epilame coating reduces the adhesive force of a surface inhibiting a fluid to wet the surface. So i guess no epilame cannot both repel and attract . If something is keeping the oil in place on top of an epilamed surface then there must be another reason for that.

Posted
22 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

17143898776141916963494073605447.jpg

That's one beautiful timepiece! Love the big crown in proportion to the case. Perhaps a ladies' watch, but I don't think so. I have a "modern Ingersoll" watch, but it has nothing to do with the original brand (Miyota 9015 movement).

22 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

fangled substances

Interesting synonym for synthetic oils!Ā šŸ˜†

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

let me snip out a image from the patent that I attached up above. Notice I highlighted something it seems to disagree with your evaluation.

image.png.9dffd08d87ba59f32e4c17980ded7de4.png

There is, of course, a limit to how large a volume of oil epilame can bind and hold in place. If the oleophobic effect is too strong then it can become a problem.

I'm not sure where I heard or read it, but as I understand it, the active ingredient in a bottle of epilame is extremely small and more than 99% of the contents of the bottle is just a transfer agent. If the active ingredient becomes too concentrated, which it can become over time, or if the product is of poor quality, the oleophobic effect is amplified. This in turn causes the applied oil to look like a gummed-up ball on the surface of the treated part. If that happens, we know that the active ingredient has become too concentrated. What we want is for the oil to bind but not to the point where it is formed into an excessively round ball on the surface.

The highlighted text in the patent that you refer to describes well the problem that can arise with too high a concentration of the active ingredient. However, I would be extremely surprised if the entire amount of oil leaves the treated surface as water on wax would.

At present, I am convinced that the analogy between wax and water on the one hand and epilame and oil on the other is incorrect. Epilame is described as binding and that is also my absolute experience. Epilame probably has some repelling effect but that is not its main purpose and that is not how epilame is designed and works.

The method of abrading the epilame treatment from the section of the pallet stones coming in contact with the escape wheel teeth seems after even more research to be well established, but if it actually works, if so how and why is beyond what I can currently understand. Perhaps it is just to do and trust that it is based on well-established experience. I am, after all, inclined to think so.

Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

That's one beautiful timepiece! Love the big crown in proportion to the case. Perhaps a ladies' watch, but I don't think so. I have a "modern Ingersoll" watch, but it has nothing to do with the original brand (Miyota 9015 movement).

Thanks H It does have a big crown for the watch , it could be considered a ladies watch these days i guess, it measures 33mm case 36mm with that large crown 18mm lug space. A tad small for a guy of today, but still very wearable. The photo was deceptive so here it is adorning my 7 1/4 " wrist. It need some love to make it run better. The hair coils are touching so running a bit fast at the moment,Ā  not caused by magnetism, and maybe just a clean and a service. The dtal is in fantastic shape.

17144799407725496609413757957738.jpg

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
  • Like 1
Posted
1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

it measures 34mm

That's the size of my grandfather's Ernest Borel watch. Definitely not a lady's watch!Ā šŸ‘

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

That's the size of my grandfather's Ernest Borel watch. Definitely not a lady's watch!Ā šŸ‘

Its a touch under ive just remeasured it and added a wrist shot. Unbelievably it was £13  plus 3 postage. You dont find watches that nice for that money every day of the week.

44 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

The method of abrading the epilame treatment from the section of the pallet stones coming in contact with the escape wheel teeth seems after even more research to be well established, but if it actually works, if so how and why is beyond what I can currently understand. Perhaps it is just to do and trust that it is based on well-established experience. I am, after all, inclined to think so.

Maybe removing the epilame in the oil region improves the purpose of it. We may know very soon as i emailed Episurf 4 hours ago to ask that exact question. šŸ¤žthey are happy to provide an answer for us.

48 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

That's one beautiful timepiece! Love the big crown in proportion to the case. Perhaps a ladies' watch, but I don't think so. I have a "modern Ingersoll" watch, but it has nothing to do with the original brand (Miyota 9015 movement).

Interesting synonym for synthetic oils!Ā šŸ˜†

There is, of course, a limit to how large a volume of oil epilame can bind and hold in place. If the oleophobic effect is too strong then it can become a problem.

I'm not sure where I heard or read it, but as I understand it, the active ingredient in a bottle of epilame is extremely small and more than 99% of the contents of the bottle is just a transfer agent. If the active ingredient becomes too concentrated, which it can become over time, or if the product is of poor quality, the oleophobic effect is amplified. This in turn causes the applied oil to look like a gummed-up ball on the surface of the treated part. If that happens, we know that the active ingredient has become too concentrated. What we want is for the oil to bind but not to the point where it is formed into an excessively round ball on the surface.

The highlighted text in the patent that you refer to describes well the problem that can arise with too high a concentration of the active ingredient. However, I would be extremely surprised if the entire amount of oil leaves the treated surface as water on wax would.

At present, I am convinced that the analogy between wax and water on the one hand and epilame and oil on the other is incorrect. Epilame is described as binding and that is also my absolute experience. Epilame probably has some repelling effect but that is not its main purpose and that is not how epilame is designed and works.

The method of abrading the epilame treatment from the section of the pallet stones coming in contact with the escape wheel teeth seems after even more research to be well established, but if it actually works, if so how and why is beyond what I can currently understand. Perhaps it is just to do and trust that it is based on well-established experience. I am, after all, inclined to think so.

How do you fancy trying a stearic acid vapour treatment experimentĀ  H .Ā  Shall i have a go this afternoon ?

Stearic acid experiment underway,  its started to melt at around  65° C. The idea is to find a large cap jewel to suspend over the vapour release. 

1714483693563272047216148760214.jpg

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
  • Like 1
Posted
12 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Oil on an epilamed surface is essentially the same as water on a waxed surface.

OK, let me try and expand on why I think this is right (but maybe misleading at the same time). Wikipedia has a good explanation of surface tension, which is where I got most of the ideas below.

The cohesion of the liquid molecules binds them together into the most compact form possible. If there are no external forces acting, this is a sphere. Surface tension is the combined effect of the cohesion between molecules on the surface with others on the surface, as well as the cohesion to molecules just under the surface, causing contraction and the formation of a denser "skin". The way a droplet of a liquid forms on a solid surface is determined by the strength of this cohesive force relative to the adhesive force between the liquid molecules and the surface material. If cohesion >> adhesion, you get a droplet. If cohesion is similar to adhesion, the liquid tends to spread out on the surface and creep away from its original location. Oil doesn't have the same high surface tension that water does, so it is not going to form a really rounded droplet on any surface in the way that water will "bead" on wax. This is where my earlier statement is misleading, but it is still exactly the same principles at work. Drops of oil on an epilamed surface are not going to run off in all directions at the lightest provocation. What the epilame does, I think, is reduce the adhesive force to the surface somewhat, making the weak cohesive force of the oil molecules more effective. The result is less tendency of the oil to spread out and creep, and more tendency to stick together as a cohesive mass.

I don't think epilame has any effect on surface tension. That is a property of the liquid and is determined solely by the cohesive forces between the liquid molecules. I also don't think the epilame makes the liquid "stick" to where it is applied. The oil adheres ("sticks") more strongly to a non-treated surface than to a surface treated with epilame. This is why the epilame needs to be removed from the contact surfaces by running dry for a short period. The oil then sticks more readily to the local contact surfaces, where the epilame layer is worn away, than to the surrounding area. The oil sticks together, and is thereby anchored in place as a single body.

Interestingly, reducing the adhesion of the oil to the solid surfaces will also reduce capillary action, which is what we rely on if we don't use epilame. Another reason to make sure the epilame is worn away from the spot you want the oil to stay put.

Ā 

Ā 

  • Like 2
Posted
1 hour ago, Klassiker said:

OK, let me try and expand on why I think this is right (but maybe misleading at the same time). Wikipedia has a good explanation of surface tension, which is where I got most of the ideas below.

The cohesion of the liquid molecules binds them together into the most compact form possible. If there are no external forces acting, this is a sphere. Surface tension is the combined effect of the cohesion between molecules on the surface with others on the surface, as well as the cohesion to molecules just under the surface, causing contraction and the formation of a denser "skin". The way a droplet of a liquid forms on a solid surface is determined by the strength of this cohesive force relative to the adhesive force between the liquid molecules and the surface material. If cohesion >> adhesion, you get a droplet. If cohesion is similar to adhesion, the liquid tends to spread out on the surface and creep away from its original location. Oil doesn't have the same high surface tension that water does, so it is not going to form a really rounded droplet on any surface in the way that water will "bead" on wax. This is where my earlier statement is misleading, but it is still exactly the same principles at work. Drops of oil on an epilamed surface are not going to run off in all directions at the lightest provocation. What the epilame does, I think, is reduce the adhesive force to the surface somewhat, making the weak cohesive force of the oil molecules more effective. The result is less tendency of the oil to spread out and creep, and more tendency to stick together as a cohesive mass.

I don't think epilame has any effect on surface tension. That is a property of the liquid and is determined solely by the cohesive forces between the liquid molecules. I also don't think the epilame makes the liquid "stick" to where it is applied. The oil adheres ("sticks") more strongly to a non-treated surface than to a surface treated with epilame. This is why the epilame needs to be removed from the contact surfaces by running dry for a short period. The oil then sticks more readily to the local contact surfaces, where the epilame layer is worn away, than to the surrounding area. The oil sticks together, and is thereby anchored in place as a single body.

Interestingly, reducing the adhesion of the oil to the solid surfaces will also reduce capillary action, which is what we rely on if we don't use epilame. Another reason to make sure the epilame is worn away from the spot you want the oil to stay put.

Ā 

Ā 

More eloquently put than i Stephen, although i dont think i was too far behind you šŸ™‚. I received an email from Episurf, they dont provide specfic instructions for its application,Ā  but did tell me that some watchmakers use a dry rub method and others do not, also in their literature they provide a surface tension measurement of Epilame.

  • Like 2
Posted
13 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

More eloquently put than i Stephen, although i dont think i was too far behind you šŸ™‚. I received an email from Episurf, they dont provide specfic instructions for its application,Ā  but did tell me that some watchmakers use a dry rub method and others do not, also in their literature they provide a surface tension measurement of Epilame.

If you don't mind, ask them what happens if you don't dry run. Does the epilame still wear away, and if so, how quickly? What do they mean with "a surface tension measurement of epilame"? (It isn't a liquid.)

Posted
1 minute ago, Klassiker said:

If you don't mind, ask them what happens if you don't dry run. Does the epilame still wear away, and if so, how quickly? What do they mean with "a surface tension measurement of epilame"? (It isn't a liquid.)

They weren't keen on providing information of its use, i think we mentioned earlier that the oil makes the barrier between the epilame and a mechanical disruption of it. I also thought that but i assume the ST measurement is in it's solution form not as a film.

20240430_155935.jpg

Screenshot_20240430-082539_Chrome.jpg

  • Like 1

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Similar Content

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • One of the problems with trying to Photograph Phils things are that his enjoyment was building these things so they tended to E falls on what will see if I can find some earlier pictures or any pictures I wasn't even sure because I was looking for that specific picture for somebody else and even it got the last version and that would have been the last version. You will note that he put the indexing on something that he could unscrew it or whatever and it can slide back out of the way so the rest of the lathe can be used as a lathe. With the lathe cut are actually coming down from the top I was there once where he demonstrated how to cut a pivot with the setup it was really beautiful. Older set up if I remember it's not a worm gear assembly in the thing in between the stepping motor and the holding block I believe this particular one was like a 100 to 1 gear ratio. Earlier version with watchmaker's lathe. Even looks like he is the watchmakers bed and then switch to something he made. Then I do have other pictures and things of the rotary stage in use. In the raw so if you tube videos here is an example of one were somebody's mounting a three jaw chuck. At one time there were available on eBay they were not cheap but if you're patient like I was I found one cheap on eBay. After you watch the video it look at his other videos he is a whole bunch of other examples of the same rotary stage. That I do know there are other pictures examples and possibly videos you just have to track them down. One of the minor issues of finding this particular tech sheet for the unit is I believe it was a custom manufacturer and the company change their name but I remember the new name here's a link to the company https://www.ondrivesus.com/rino-mechanical-components Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā 
    • Escapement adjusting always interesting and depending upon the reference always confusing. Okay maybe it's not always confusing but it does lead to confusion. I have a PDF below it's actually a whole bunch of separate stuff including a hand out that came from a lecture that's on you tube. Then from that we get this image Consequences of doing things especially if you do things out of order or you do things for the wrong reason. Oh and even if the watches working I made the mistake one so showing my boss how tweaking the banking pins on a full plate on the timing machine made the amplitude get better and now he thinks that's what they're for and I don't think a fully grasped exactly what horn clearance means. Consequence of doing things. Notice what it says about opening and closing the banking pins and total lock? So yes I've had that on a full plate where it won't unlock at all and that's the banking pins or a combination of things basically. So banking pins unfortunately get moved. One of the ways to tell if it's been moved is the look straight down at the end of the fork with the balance wheel removed. Power on the fork push at the one side look at it push it to the other side also look at it and compare anything with the center reference the balance jewel and see if both sides of the same. No guarantee after the same there in the right place but at least are the same typically when people play with things one side will be way off from the other because they had no idea what they were doing at all because of course it's a full plate and you really have to paying attention and even then there's still hard to do. Then the other thing that comes up like it shows below is people often adjust the banking pins to do all those other things as opposed to horn clearance which is all that it's therefore and maybe bonus Guard pin clearance although you're supposed to deal with the guard pin is a separate thing like single roller gets bent in Or out or sometimes physically gets moved in and out. Some full plates older escapement's typically pallet forks held together with screws and you can actually unscrew and move the entire assembly in Or out more complications to deal with. Ā  Ā  Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf
    • If he was much younger and some sort of sports player it wouldn't be a problem. They would be in there and doing surgery and he'd be back on the field in no time. Unfortunately when you get older little things are bad and big things can be really bad so not good at all.
    • Where I work everything incoming watches whatever detailed descriptions are taken entered into a computer program and photograph of each item. Then ideally although it depends on who's doing the paperwork detailed descriptions can be quite good other times there lacking. Like I really like it with pocket watches if they would record the serial number it avoids confusion later on. Then when watch repairs are completed that is also entered in. It's one of the amusements I learned when I was in school instructor had a shop and commented about the important aspect of keeping detailed records of repairs. Because oftentimes a customer who got a new crystal will come back later on when the watch doesn't work and expect you to fix the entire watch for free. Then you can remind them that they just got a crystal. Strangely enough that keeps coming up or occasionally comes up where I work now. One of the problems of using the service marks on the case is that in the case of pocket watches oftentimes that's not the original case. Then case marks? What I was doing warranty work for a company I used to describe a code number in the back of the case and it would tell me the next time I see the watch that basically what I did I made no attempt at keeping track of customers because we had literally thousands of them I think they sold 30,000 of these watches and they would come back by the hundreds because they had a lifetime warranty. Yes that's a story all of itself but I would put a code number that would reference what was done to the watch the last time and think I had a date in there somehow so it did tell a story if you knew the code. Another shop I once worked out the number would reference the page in the book. So other than knowing we had been in there you would have no idea what happened because you have to go look at the page in the book to see what happened. Then the problem of how you examine a watch you should examine the watch in detail every single time to avoid complications. Although on vintage watches and this is a of amusement I have at work when people ask something and I say of the watches done when it leaves. This is because on vintage oftentimes problems won't show up until the watches much farther into the repair like it's now running and you discover things that you can't discover before because it wasn't running to discover them that also become sometimes difficult to have exact rigid prices are estimates of repairs or in the case of a pocket watch you may not find out if a casing problem to later on when you case it up in the watches running. I was just thinking for all those people that would like to leave a mark maybe you should learn to do what some of the past watchmakers did? Leave a mark but leave it in such a way that no one will ever find it? Typically not done for repair purposes but done for other reasons like identifying it's legit. I have a friend with a Gruen watch and one of the Roman numbers the bottom line that just looks like a line under extreme magnification actually says Gruen watch company or something equivalent. So here's a link showing how to mark your watch without being seen although that's not the actual title. So if you can learn micro engraving you can engrave the watch someplace probably just about any place you just have to remember where you put it. https://cnaluxury.channelnewsasia.com/obsessions/how-to-prove-if-watches-are-authentic-secret-signatures-182516 Ā 
    • I have acquired a Citizen Leopard 36000 watch. My reason for purchasing it was my desire to own a timepiece with a 36,000 BPH movement, and the price was reasonable. Another motivating factor was gaining hands-on experience with the mechanism. The watch is in good condition, but I intend to fully disassemble it for maintenance. First and foremost, if anyone has prior experience with this particular model, I would greatly appreciate their insights. I do not have access to Citizen’s specialized lubricants and will need to use the ones available to me, such as 9010, 8000, and 8300 grease. Additionally, I do not possess the appropriate oil for the pallet jewels and will only be able to clean them.
×
×
  • Create New...