Automatic AS2063 Running Very Fast

[Deggsie]

Hello All

A colleague asked if I would kindly look at a lovely Montine automatic which was mechanically in poor health and need of an overhaul. Upon receipt, despite the age of the watch (circa 40 years I am told) the condition of the case and crystal were both excellent. However the winding stem was jammed in the ‘in’ position and the movement would not wind nor run. Further investigation in my workshop revealed the following problems:

 

One dial screw had come free.

One barrel bridge screw had come free.

Balance cock screw loose.

Remaining bridge screws very loose.

One of the jewels partially pressed out and canted at an angle.

Underside of crown wheel very scored by the displaced jewel.

Apparently no lubrication at all.

 

Otherwise all was well

 

I stripped and cleaned the movement, reset the jewel in the bridge and honed the underside of the crown wheel to remove the scoring. Now, the only component I did not open and service was the barrel.

 

Upon reassembly and a few clicks on the winder, the balance reassuringly sprung into life. I oiled the pallets from the reverse side through the apertures, and oiled the end caps after cleaning them.

 

After only 20 minutes of running the watch had gained 5 minutes! Adjustment of the regulator to its extreme had little effect. The hair spring is clean and undamaged, and I demagnetised the watch on the degaussing unit at work today.

 

Can anyone please give pointers as to what I’ve missed or done wrong? The AS2063 isn’t new to me and I’ve done 5 or so in the past, but never had this issue with fast running.

 

Kind regards

Deggsy

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Deggsie

[jdm]

Do you have a timegrapher pic?

[Chopin]

Have you inspected the hairspring ? Is it perfectly round or bent/warped ? You also have to inspect to see if it's straight horizontally or bent.

[Deggsie]

JDM:   Thanks for your reply, unfortunately I don'd yet have my own timegrapher and it'll be a while before I get access to one.  However, this movement does sound rather ill, more like the irregular clip clop of anxious horse down the street, than the harmonious tick tock it should be making.

Chopin:  Thanks also for your reply.  I must admit, I checked for the coils contacting one another and irregularities to the geometry in plan view, but forgot to check the side view.   You may well be onto something there... I hope

I have another AS2063 (21 jewel version and not the 25 jewel which is exhibiting this problem) and I will try a straight swap of the balance/hairspring/cock assemblies tomorrow (providing they are interchangeable).   If the donor balance resolves the issue, I will know where to focus my attention.

Kind regards

Deggsie.

[jdm]

16 minutes ago, Deggsie said:

JDM:   Thanks for your reply, unfortunately I don'd yet have my own timegrapher and it'll be a while before I get access to one.

Try an app on PC or tablet/smartphone. It's a tool one can't do without.

[Deggsie]

Thanks JDM.  Can you recommend a good app?  I have an apple phone.

[jdm]

2 minutes ago, Deggsie said:

Thanks JDM.  Can you recommend a good app?  I have an apple phone.

Sorry I don't really know. I don't think there are that many to try, main issue is the microphone.

[StuartBaker104]

I have a timegrapher, but also find this useful http://forums.watchuseek.com/f6/open-source-timing-software-2542874.html, the only hardware you need is a pc with a soundcard and a set of headphones from a phone.

[Deggsie]

Cool!   I like that it worked straight away, no errors loading etc.   Thank you for posting this link Stuart!

I'll bring a good microphone home from work and have a play with it.  Do I need to know and input the lift angle, or is that something the software derives?  Is lift angle the angle of oscillation the balance wheel makes either side of its resting position?   You know you will have opened a can of worms regarding question from me Stuart

Regards

Deggsie.

[StuartBaker104]

You need the lift angle if you want an accurate value for the balance amplitude. There are many resources on line for lift angles - googling Lepsi lift angle should give you one if I recall. If you can’t find anything I can dig out some other sources

[Chopin]

When you say that the movement sounds ill do you mean the hairspring or other parts ? You should listen to the hairspring and it should further tell you if it's not functioning properly (you just know it when you hear it). As I said I'm thinking that it's bent/warped somehow. This causes the watch to, usually, run faster.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Chopin

[Deggsie]

When you say listen to the hairspring, do you mean listen for noises where it’s clashing on underside of the balance for example?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Deggsie]

When you say that the movement sounds ill do you mean the hairspring or other parts ? You should listen to the hairspring and it should further tell you if it's not functioning properly (you just know it when you hear it). As I said I'm thinking that it's bent/warped somehow. This causes the watch to, usually, run faster.

Just the rhythm of the tick tick. In other words the escapement. Everything else is smooth


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BUSAKAZ]

JDM:   Thanks for your reply, unfortunately I don'd yet have my own timegrapher and it'll be a while before I get access to one.  However, this movement does sound rather ill, more like the irregular clip clop of anxious horse down the street, than the harmonious tick tock it should be making.
Chopin:  Thanks also for your reply.  I must admit, I checked for the coils contacting one another and irregularities to the geometry in plan view, but forgot to check the side view.   You may well be onto something there... I hope [emoji4]
I have another AS2063 (21 jewel version and not the 25 jewel which is exhibiting this problem) and I will try a straight swap of the balance/hairspring/cock assemblies tomorrow (providing they are interchangeable).   If the donor balance resolves the issue, I will know where to focus my attention.
Kind regards
Deggsie.

Hi mate

It’s called re-banking you say you never cleaned the barrel and you have a galloping horse, ok go to YouTube type in perplxr then find the title classic watchmaking barrel wall lubrication,have a look back and tell us what you think.

Many thanks
Kaz


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[clockboy]

Normally if it not the hairspring and it is not magnetised then it is a loose canon pinion.

[Deggsie]

Great. I’m at work at the moment but some nice responses from all you guys. I’ll enjoy this one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Deggsie]

On 2/27/2018 at 9:29 AM, clockboy said:

Normally if it not the hairspring and it is not magnetised then it is a loose canon pinion.

Hello All, and please accept my apologies for not coming back to you on this one - my life seems to have got in the way.  Anyway, back to my hobby again.   Clockboy, you say it could be a loose cannon pinion, but I cannot see how this would be so?  In my mind, this scenario has the movement running at (perhaps) correct speed, and the canon pinion is slipping relative to it, therefore the hands moce slower.  Can you explain the theory please?   Kind regards, Deggsie.

[clockboy]

9 hours ago, Deggsie said:

Hello All, and please accept my apologies for not coming back to you on this one - my life seems to have got in the way.  Anyway, back to my hobby again.   Clockboy, you say it could be a loose cannon pinion, but I cannot see how this would be so?  In my mind, this scenario has the movement running at (perhaps) correct speed, and the canon pinion is slipping relative to it, therefore the hands moce slower.  Can you explain the theory please?   Kind regards, Deggsie.

Believe it or not, a watch must have a tiny bit of friction which the cannon pinion gives. If the cannon pinion is loose then the watch will run fast with no control. If, when you turn the crown & hands it feels really loose then that is the issue to be addressed.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, clockboy said:

Believe it or not, a watch must have a tiny bit of friction which the cannon pinion gives. If the cannon pinion is loose then the watch will run fast with no control.

Correct, as in when you don't look at it for a while and then find suddenly has jumped ahead by hours. But when it runs constantly fast, it's not a cannon pinion problem. We have read cases where a wrong wheel was fitted causing the problem, but i don't think it applies here. As mentioned, it's trivially easy to confirm using any form of timegrapher.

[jdm]

2 minutes ago, Deggsie said:

 In my mind, this scenario has the movement running at (perhaps) correct speed, and the canon pinion is slipping relative to it, therefore the hands moce slower.

If it's very lose a shock(s) can move hands forward. 

[Deggsie]

On 3/3/2018 at 10:02 AM, jdm said:

Correct, as in when you don't look at it for a while and then find suddenly has jumped ahead by hours. But when it runs constantly fast, it's not a cannon pinion problem. We have read cases where a wrong wheel was fitted causing the problem, but i don't think it applies here. As mentioned, it's trivially easy to confirm using any form of timegrapher.

Ah, I see.   Thanks for explaining that.  So I'm going to borrow a friends timegrapher and post the results on here.   Another friend has suggested its the escapement?  Other than one pallet jewel being missing I cant see how this would cause the watch to run fast.  And then, if one jewel were missing, wouldn't the main spring simply unwind rapidly?

[Deggsie]

Ahh.. Yes, I see now.

[jdm]

2 minutes ago, Deggsie said:

Other than one pallet jewel being missing I cant see how this would cause the watch to run fast.  And then, if one jewel were missing, wouldn't the main spring simply unwind rapidly?

I don't think a watch can run without pallet jewels.

[Orville]

I would check to make sure the pressure washer is installed behind the dial.  If the pinion is jumping up, it could behave very strange.

[Deggsie]

This is rather a rather frustrating case. The owner of the watch asked me about its progress today and so showed him that I had restored the watch to functionality (winding, running, date etc) but pointed out that I was very concerned over it running fast and I would need to keep it a little longer to resolve the issue. To my surprise, he was chuffed to pieces that the watch was ticking and was not worried in the least that it was running fast. I said I would continue to look into the matter and fix it, but he was just happy that the watch was running and wanted to take it as it was. To boot, he tried to pay me some money which I took only in lieu of a new leather strap I fitted. So, all in all I learned nothing about this watch☹️


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk