Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

Hello Guys

 

I though I'd introduce myself to the forum.

 

I was looking for a hobby for the winter months that involved fixing/re-conditioning things and decided I'd like to give watches a try. The fact it doesn't take up much space and create a mess is a bonus.

 

I'm not sure if I've chosen the right watch to start off with, but it's a Helvetia (working).

 

My knowledge consists of absolutely zero information about watches, so I have a steep learning curve ahead of me.

 

My plan, unless advised otherwise, is to strip down and build it back up. If it still runs, i'll be very proud with myself.

 

Any thoughts on this watch as a place to learn watch repair?

 

helvetia.jpg

 

helvetiaFront.jpg

Posted (edited)

Welcome to the forum! That looks like a very nice movement and my advice would be - if the Helvetia is running - to buy a really cheap movement to practise on first. One where it doesn't matter if you happen to mess it up!

Edited by WillFly
Posted

I thought this was a really cheap movement to be honest - i paid around £8 for it

 

It runs but stops intermittentlly.

 

Is it too good to practice on?

Posted

Wow - £8 is a good price to pay! Well done.

 

If it's running intermittently at the moment - and you only paid that much for it - I can't see anything wrong with having a bash!

 

The advice from many of us here would be: As you go along, take notes/photographs of what you do so you can reconstruct the movement after disassembly.

 

Sounds like it needs a good clean. Best of luck!

  • Like 1
Posted

Im tempted to pick up a non-runner or two now, but I'm having trouble finding some screwdrivers that are small enough.

 

Can you recommend something. I wonder if I should get a good single screwdrivers rather than a lower quality set.

 

Phil

Posted

It's better, on the whole, to get a set of different sizes as the screws in a watch movement will be of different sizes as well. A driver that's too big or too small can damage the screw head slot - particularly if the screw is a little stiff. I don't see any harm in getting a cheap'ish set to start with if that's what you can afford. It's always best to buy the highest quality you can, but we aren't all made of money. A good pair of steel tweezers and a good pair of brass tweezers (brass is softer than steel) will be essential, plus a movement holder and a hands puller. Don't forget some plastic containers with compartments (or several individual containers) for parts. I'm sure other friends on the forum - more experienced than me - will have lots of good advice on tools and procedures.

Posted

Welcome from another Newbie. That's a nice looking movement. I'm starting with a fairly common movement so it's easy to find replacement parts cheap. I actually bought four of the same movement for this purpose. So far it's worked out well since I've broken two escape wheel pivots and lost three click springs. All I need to do is look at a spring and it flies across the room. :startle:

 

Good luck and have fun!

 

Don

Posted

Ah ha, thanks for sharing that. 

 

I'll bookmark the page and have a google.

 

Are certain movements in multiple makes of watch or do manufacturers make their own?

Posted

There are forum users much more knowledgeable about that subject that I am. But in short, some watch manufacturers make their own movements in house, Seiko for instance, but many more buy them from movement manufacturers, most notably ETA.

  • Like 1
Posted

It's very varied - and has varied over the years. Manufacturers like Omega and Enicar tended to use their own movements. Other marques, like Majex, for example, might use an Enicar movement - perhaps with their own name stamped on it. I have at least two differently named watches - the Swiss Actua make and the Swedish City make - that both use the ETA 1100 movement.

Posted

Hi PhilB, welcome to the forum. You'll be surprised how hooked you'll be with this hobby...it may last more than a winter! In any case, good size and type movement to start with. You will need some tech specs that I haven't been able to locate for you so far but you can always take as many pictures as possible of your progress as Will suggested. It really helps.

 

I would recommend to be very careful witht the balance wheel and hairspring. First thing I do is remove the cock and wheel and place it wheel up in a safe place (I have a plastic case for it and a tack which I use sometimes). That will avoid damaging it accidentally. Handle with lots and lots of care!

 

Also I would recommend to get the best tools you can afford but the main ones are in order: Tweezers, Tweezers, Tweezers and Screw drivers! Buy the best tweezers you cannot afford! And the best screw drivers you can. Then you can get a real good movement holder and don't forget tools to open and close the watches you work on (you don't want to scratch them with substandard ones...scratch them with the expensive ones :) ). A cheapo press is good to start with and then the rest will come as needs crawl in!

 

So again, welcome and enjoy our forum!

Posted

As a newbie it's difficult to justify spending good money on tools to start a hobby you may not stick with.

 

There's also the added challenge of not knowing a good set of tweezers or screwdrivers from a bad set.

 

These look good but can I get away with something a little cheaper?

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-Precision-AF-Makers-Screwdriver/dp/B001R5KSK4/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1409177225&sr=8-9&keywords=bergeon

Posted

That's a good price for a set of 4 I believe. Esslinger has a set of 6 AF brand for US$74 (consider currency conversion and shipping/waiting time). AF are not bad at all, still, I spent 4 or 5 times as much for my current set from Bergeon and some AF, Horotec and Moded No Name Brand mixed in.

 

As a matter of fact, my first set was cheaper but notice that the blades are held in place by screws so the tolerances and the shape of the blades at the base, where they fit into the handle, are important. The cheap sets will not allow for control, presicion and proper tightness since the blades will wobble -- and sometimes won't align well -- into their "sockets". In other words, they will not be rigid enough, or/and staight enough, at a certain or all tension. Better sets include more refinements enhancing the feel  which is what is all about in such small devices that are movements.

 

Remember, never use brute force in a watch..but some coaxing is sometimes (often?) necessary. That's where the feel is important. In addition, the material the blades are made of or how it was treated has an impact on durability. It is all a presicion game from the movement to the tools you use, therefore, expensive.

 

Also remember, don't forget the tweezers! if you don't want to mess/maim/lose movement parts and/or spend more time on the floor looking for parts than necessary, buy the best tweezers you can afford. Dumont are probably the best you can get at a reasonable price if you consider other brands like Bergeon and Horotec which pump up the price a lot (although they are good quality) You will need a #2 and a #5 most likely but you can get away with 2 #2's. (or 5's) The trick with tweezers is to learn what they can do so you don't ruin a good pair before its time.

 

In fact, when you think about it, spending money is part of the hobby too!!! :thumbsd: Hope this all helps to get you started in this awesome hobby.

  • Like 1
Posted

Cousins has those a little cheaper...

 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/tools/screwdriver-sets/af-swiss-stainless-steel-non-magnetic-5-pieces

 

Good tweezers make life much easier and they're "relatively" inexpensive, around £17.95 for excellent quality Dumont #2 on Cousins. They have Indian brass tweezers for £1.75. The Indian brass tweezers I have aren't bad. YMMV.

 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/tools/dumont-tweezers/tweezers-dumont-no2-medium-tips (I have the Duxomel)

https://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/tools/brass-tweezers/tweezers-brass-indian

Posted

Good call Don, and great link from our site! I wonder if it could be made a sticky.

 

Also it would be a good idea to develop it more with more involved tools and techniques. Sometimes I see stuff out ther and I can't even imagine what is it used for and if they tell me I wouldn't know better either.

Posted

I started off buying cheap screwdrivers and can't emphasise enough what a mistake it was. I eventually looked at the size of the screws and bought 3 good quality ones and they are a delight to work with. What is possible is buying a cheaper but good fitting driver that you can replace the blades with Bergeon spare blades that can reduce the spend. Look for a set that locates the blade with grub screws, the pin holder types that screw to tighten are not as good in my view.

Use your iPad or phone to take pictures of the movement at every stage of dismantling and if there are parts with quirky fittings try to get close up shots of them. This makes a difference when putting it back together.

Small bits fly off to oblivion for any reason at all, springs, screws - anything, then you spend an age trying to find them. I got an A3 sheet of white card at a craft shop to work on and it helps. Do not pick up small screws etc. with your tweezers and think that holding them tightly will stop them from dropping, the opposite applies as excessive pressure just turns the tweezers into a device for propulsion as the tips rock open using the screw as a bearing - firm but gentle.

Get some Rodico to lift things, it's a bit like blue tack but more useful. Use it to pick up small stuff.

Be on the look out for the one left hand threaded screw in the movement - check out Mark's videos and a guy called bunnspecial as well.

Mark just knows where everything goes inherently after years in his profession but I find it prudent to keep the parts for each stage in order then work backwards to re fit them - tops off large plastic milk containers are good.

The good oil costs more than gold and I am not joking - good luck with that one and if you find a way of getting it cheap tell me ! The consensus is that the cheap oils in general are bad, however, if you are in practice mode on a really cheap watch will generic watch oil be a bad thing - this is a vexed issue and opinions will vary greatly - whatever, don't use too much as that is just as bad as none at all. Again watch Mark's videos - he can really make a 2 mill phial last for ages (:-))

Welcome and it is fun !

Posted

Thanks Vich

 

I don't have a lot of spare cash, so I'm avoiding buying everything in one go.

 

With this in mind, I've bought 3x A*F screwdrivers (0.8,1,1.2), pointer removers, movement holder and brass tweezers.

 

So now at least I have the the tools to strip a movement.

 

I'll photograph everything thoroughly while stripping and take a look at those videos. There's also a watch repairing book mentioned earlier in the thread I'd like to get on the kindle too.

Posted

Hi PhilB and welcome!  I'm a fellow newbie - complete newbie to the watch repair world - and I feel your pain.  I had to buy virtually everything from scratch and the people here in these forums are very helpful!

 

For what its worth get the best you can afford in known brand name tools.  Skip the cheap tools but that's just my two cents worth.

 

I've been finding that trying to get good cheap 'donor' watches somewhat difficult, at least here in Canada.  I'm willing to spend a little extra if its got potential but the junk that I've been finding isn't worth it.

 

Good Luck!

Posted

If I may, my two cents, when looking for a donor watch and/or watches to donate to each other (for lack of better words), I always follow some unbreakable rules. I check that the balance turns, and at least it works a little, even intermittently would do. If automatic, that the rotor is not stuck and if with bezel that it still turns somehow. If possible check how the movement looks although sometimes there is only the description and a bad picture. I've even been lucky or maybe I'm doing something right since I've got good watches to practice on so far by following the above.

 

"A man's got to have rules" -- The Transporter

 

:D

Posted

As for not taking up much space .... mmmmmm ...... I am constantly nagged for taking up half the spare room with table, tools and watch equipment. I use ice cube trays when stripping a watch, tends to keep all the various stages in one spot. Oh and a thumping great magnet for looking for the parts that have pinged into the watchmakers blackhole....

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Similar Content

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • One of the problems with trying to Photograph Phils things are that his enjoyment was building these things so they tended to E falls on what will see if I can find some earlier pictures or any pictures I wasn't even sure because I was looking for that specific picture for somebody else and even it got the last version and that would have been the last version. You will note that he put the indexing on something that he could unscrew it or whatever and it can slide back out of the way so the rest of the lathe can be used as a lathe. With the lathe cut are actually coming down from the top I was there once where he demonstrated how to cut a pivot with the setup it was really beautiful. Older set up if I remember it's not a worm gear assembly in the thing in between the stepping motor and the holding block I believe this particular one was like a 100 to 1 gear ratio. Earlier version with watchmaker's lathe. Even looks like he is the watchmakers bed and then switch to something he made. Then I do have other pictures and things of the rotary stage in use. In the raw so if you tube videos here is an example of one were somebody's mounting a three jaw chuck. At one time there were available on eBay they were not cheap but if you're patient like I was I found one cheap on eBay. After you watch the video it look at his other videos he is a whole bunch of other examples of the same rotary stage. That I do know there are other pictures examples and possibly videos you just have to track them down. One of the minor issues of finding this particular tech sheet for the unit is I believe it was a custom manufacturer and the company change their name but I remember the new name here's a link to the company https://www.ondrivesus.com/rino-mechanical-components                
    • Escapement adjusting always interesting and depending upon the reference always confusing. Okay maybe it's not always confusing but it does lead to confusion. I have a PDF below it's actually a whole bunch of separate stuff including a hand out that came from a lecture that's on you tube. Then from that we get this image Consequences of doing things especially if you do things out of order or you do things for the wrong reason. Oh and even if the watches working I made the mistake one so showing my boss how tweaking the banking pins on a full plate on the timing machine made the amplitude get better and now he thinks that's what they're for and I don't think a fully grasped exactly what horn clearance means. Consequence of doing things. Notice what it says about opening and closing the banking pins and total lock? So yes I've had that on a full plate where it won't unlock at all and that's the banking pins or a combination of things basically. So banking pins unfortunately get moved. One of the ways to tell if it's been moved is the look straight down at the end of the fork with the balance wheel removed. Power on the fork push at the one side look at it push it to the other side also look at it and compare anything with the center reference the balance jewel and see if both sides of the same. No guarantee after the same there in the right place but at least are the same typically when people play with things one side will be way off from the other because they had no idea what they were doing at all because of course it's a full plate and you really have to paying attention and even then there's still hard to do. Then the other thing that comes up like it shows below is people often adjust the banking pins to do all those other things as opposed to horn clearance which is all that it's therefore and maybe bonus Guard pin clearance although you're supposed to deal with the guard pin is a separate thing like single roller gets bent in Or out or sometimes physically gets moved in and out. Some full plates older escapement's typically pallet forks held together with screws and you can actually unscrew and move the entire assembly in Or out more complications to deal with.     Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf
    • If he was much younger and some sort of sports player it wouldn't be a problem. They would be in there and doing surgery and he'd be back on the field in no time. Unfortunately when you get older little things are bad and big things can be really bad so not good at all.
    • Where I work everything incoming watches whatever detailed descriptions are taken entered into a computer program and photograph of each item. Then ideally although it depends on who's doing the paperwork detailed descriptions can be quite good other times there lacking. Like I really like it with pocket watches if they would record the serial number it avoids confusion later on. Then when watch repairs are completed that is also entered in. It's one of the amusements I learned when I was in school instructor had a shop and commented about the important aspect of keeping detailed records of repairs. Because oftentimes a customer who got a new crystal will come back later on when the watch doesn't work and expect you to fix the entire watch for free. Then you can remind them that they just got a crystal. Strangely enough that keeps coming up or occasionally comes up where I work now. One of the problems of using the service marks on the case is that in the case of pocket watches oftentimes that's not the original case. Then case marks? What I was doing warranty work for a company I used to describe a code number in the back of the case and it would tell me the next time I see the watch that basically what I did I made no attempt at keeping track of customers because we had literally thousands of them I think they sold 30,000 of these watches and they would come back by the hundreds because they had a lifetime warranty. Yes that's a story all of itself but I would put a code number that would reference what was done to the watch the last time and think I had a date in there somehow so it did tell a story if you knew the code. Another shop I once worked out the number would reference the page in the book. So other than knowing we had been in there you would have no idea what happened because you have to go look at the page in the book to see what happened. Then the problem of how you examine a watch you should examine the watch in detail every single time to avoid complications. Although on vintage watches and this is a of amusement I have at work when people ask something and I say of the watches done when it leaves. This is because on vintage oftentimes problems won't show up until the watches much farther into the repair like it's now running and you discover things that you can't discover before because it wasn't running to discover them that also become sometimes difficult to have exact rigid prices are estimates of repairs or in the case of a pocket watch you may not find out if a casing problem to later on when you case it up in the watches running. I was just thinking for all those people that would like to leave a mark maybe you should learn to do what some of the past watchmakers did? Leave a mark but leave it in such a way that no one will ever find it? Typically not done for repair purposes but done for other reasons like identifying it's legit. I have a friend with a Gruen watch and one of the Roman numbers the bottom line that just looks like a line under extreme magnification actually says Gruen watch company or something equivalent. So here's a link showing how to mark your watch without being seen although that's not the actual title. So if you can learn micro engraving you can engrave the watch someplace probably just about any place you just have to remember where you put it. https://cnaluxury.channelnewsasia.com/obsessions/how-to-prove-if-watches-are-authentic-secret-signatures-182516  
    • I have acquired a Citizen Leopard 36000 watch. My reason for purchasing it was my desire to own a timepiece with a 36,000 BPH movement, and the price was reasonable. Another motivating factor was gaining hands-on experience with the mechanism. The watch is in good condition, but I intend to fully disassemble it for maintenance. First and foremost, if anyone has prior experience with this particular model, I would greatly appreciate their insights. I do not have access to Citizen’s specialized lubricants and will need to use the ones available to me, such as 9010, 8000, and 8300 grease. Additionally, I do not possess the appropriate oil for the pallet jewels and will only be able to clean them.
×
×
  • Create New...