Buffing; Myth or Fact?

[anilv]

Marc.. are you sure you mean buffing?

The reason I ask is that comparing polishing and burnishing makes more sense.

Burnish tends to leave a smoother surface without removing material if done correctly, and is usually how stuff like pivots are finished.

Anilv

[Marc]

On 04/11/2017 at 2:32 PM, jdm said:

That damage is well outside the possibilities of buffing repair.

You appear to have completely missed the point of this experiment, which as @mikepilk quite clearly stated, was to see if a lip of moved metal could be seen to form in the filed groove due to the buffing process. Any lip did not have to fill the groove to be a proof of metal moving rather than being removed, it simply had to be there. As the excellent macrophotography shows quite beyond doubt no visible lip was formed. It is fair to conclude that in this specific instance the evidence strongly suggests that the process removed material rather than reshaped it. However, rather than proclaim that this was the last word on the subject Mike, in accordance with what has become established as "The Scientific Method" invited others to repeat the experiment, perhaps using different equipment, to see if a different result could be achieved. The experiment was a perfectly valid test of the hypothesis, a hypothesis which in this instance was found to be lacking.

Regarding the terminology it would seem that "buffing" and "polishing" can be used either way round within the world of watchmaking and silver/goldsmithing. As your Esslinger link demonstrates one usage so another Jewelers supplier does the other;

"Polishing:

This process removes surface material, improving the surface and preparing it for buffing. This is generally a coarse operation involving sandpaper and/or coarse polishing compounds.

Buffing:

This process makes the surface smooth producing a high luster and mirror finish if desired. This is done with the use of buffing wheels and buffing compounds. Buffing can be divided into two steps; cut buffing and color buffing."

https://www.pjtool.com/buffing-polishing-terms/

Even Tag Heuer describes " Polishing and a final hand buffing make the metal and the surface smooth." https://www.tagheuer.com/en/watch-finishings/polished-watches

Suggesting that buffing is a process that follows polishing. As I stated in my post at the top of this thread;

On 03/11/2017 at 1:01 AM, Marc said:

the terminologly was reversed; the process of removing the surface irregularities was referred to as buffing, the final finishing was referred to as polishing. This was at odds to everything that I had just read which was a bit confusing.

This remains true and no amount of context specific Googling has come up with a definitive definition.

 

On 04/11/2017 at 2:32 PM, jdm said:

Also I I'm under the impression that Marc went to attack that case with the purpose of demonstrating his pre-concepts, that is reduced to blanket statement that "buffing ruins edges".

At no point in this thread or in @bojan1990's thread " Problems with polishing a watch case" have I implied or made a "blanket statement that "buffing ruins edges"." in fact what I did say was;

On 03/11/2017 at 1:01 AM, Marc said:

I'm not saying that buffing can't be done in such a way as to preserve such detail

and;

On 03/11/2017 at 11:46 AM, Marc said:

Machine buffing certainly has its place, and in the right hands can produce some excellent results

completely contrary to your impression. I did state that machine buffing incurred a high risk of things going wrong due to the speed at which the process takes place, especially in unskilled hands. I stand by that statement.

If you want an example of a blanket statement that clearly demonstrates someones pre-concepts and intolerance of anothers techniques, try " Never use abrasive paper on a watch case, is very bad for a (self appointed) watchmaker to suggest that.", and "As mentioned already I have left this discussion, it's not my duty to educate. Feel free to sandpaper your or your friend' s watches, just.don't don't expect to be told that is right by anyone that does it the correct way." both of which can be found here;

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/7395-problems-with-polishing-a-watch-case/

On 04/11/2017 at 2:32 PM, jdm said:

Of course it does, when done incorrectly as above.

If the video, from which all of the images I used were taken, was an example of buffing being done incorrectly, why was it posted as an example of "correct" procedure?

 

On 04/11/2017 at 2:32 PM, jdm said:

If others prefer to remove half a mm of metal all around in order to fix a 0.1mm ding

Why would anyone do that? If the ding is only 0.1mm deep then only 0.1mm of material needs to be removed to lose it. This can be as easily and accurately achieved using wet/dry silicon carbide paper (also works for masonry) as it can using a buffing wheel, just as overdoing can be as easily done with a buffing wheel as with "sand paper", as perfectly demonstrated by the video.

On 04/11/2017 at 2:32 PM, jdm said:

I still have to see of someone with "proper linishers or lapping discs combined with dedicated jigs"

http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?216809-Lapping-machine-case-example-pics-on-page-3/page2

http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?323843-My-go-on-watch-case-lapping

On 04/11/2017 at 2:32 PM, jdm said:

Also the suggestion of "laser welding" made in other threads is kind of laughable for me, as for example in my "1st world" country I can't find a decent welder for large pieces, go figure micro-welding.

http://microarcwelding.com/services/

http://www.laserweldingservices.co.uk/

There are many more, the internet is a wonderful tool....

On 04/11/2017 at 2:32 PM, jdm said:

All I know is that I can repair most of damage to SS cases using proper buffing and polishing, and I have posted my results on various occasions. Perhaps I will do again as long, even if that will make people turning blue in the face to demonstrate that I can't

At no point has anyone said that you can't, and I don't envisage anyone holding their breath to go blue in the face waiting for you to fail.

Buffing is clearly a skill that you have mastered and that is a good thing as it keeps a skill set alive. However, I do not believe that it is the only correct way to refinish or repair a damaged watch case, there are other equally effective and valid techniques that can be applied.

The title of this thread is " Buffing; Myth or Fact?", the ? indicates that it is a question as it was an attempt to encourage discussion about the relative merrits of the technique and to try and flush out some evidence for the claim that buffing moves the metal about, or at least a metallurgically sensible explanation for how such a mechanism works. So far neither evidence nor explanation has been forthcoming. So far........

 

[Geo]

As ever a concise unambiguous reply to points raised, without preaching!  

Thank you Marc.

[jdm]

On 11/7/2017 at 1:03 AM, Marc said:

Regarding the terminology it would seem that "buffing" and "polishing" can be used either way round within the world of watchmaking and silver/goldsmithing.

We can kind agree on that, in the sense that there is people that unfortunately uses the two terms almost randomly.

And I hope that the time and effort you spent on your far from concise posting will be worth to you or whoever has the interest to read it in full. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by jdm