Strange omega running

[Deggsie]

First of all if the crow is correctly fitted to the stem then the end of the stem is already hard up against the end of the hole in the crown and therefore cannot screw in any further.
Secondly, what you are suggesting would effectively be the same as pulling the crown out into the setting position which wouldn't normally result in stopping the watch running unless it had a hack feature.
Either way one way to test your hypothesis would be to remove the movement from the case and refit the stem complete with crown and see if anything changes.

And of course .... you assume that the crown was correctly fitted - which we cannot assume until verified. If a service / clean is the solution I am curious as to the cause. Any ideas?


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[Marc]

27 minutes ago, Deggsy said:

And of course .... you assume that the crown was correctly fitted - which we cannot assume until verified. If a service / clean is the solution I am curious as to the cause. Any ideas?


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Absolutely.

However, unless there was damaged threads involved which caused binding between the stem and the crown before the stem bottomed out in the crown (always a possibility) it would be impossible to tighten the crown on the stem in the first place. Also as I already mentioned, the mechanism you describe would simply draw the crown out towards the setting position which (assuming there was no hack) wouldn't cause the movement to stop, it would simply disengage the crown wheel and engage the setting works resulting in the hands turning with further turning of the crown. Obviously a hacking function would also stop the movement running.

The OP states;

On 27/06/2017 at 11:35 PM, Svbiker said:

I removed the case back and took the movement out. I then wound it and put gentle pressure on the crown. It started going.

Which means that this behaviour was observed with the movement out of the case and therefore with nothing other than the stem between the crown and the edge of the movement. In which case the correct (or otherwise) fitment of the stem to the crown cannot have any bearing on the symptoms observed.

Where the OP states that he wound the watch and then "put gentle pressure on the crown" I have interpreted this (rightly or wrongly) as meaning that once the spring was fully wound the gentle pressure applied to the crown was rotational against the resistance of the fully wound spring. In which case the application of torque in excess to that which the main spring was able to supply unaided was sufficient to overcome the additional drag that can result from dried up or gummy oil and the accumulation of dirt in the movement resulting in the movement starting to run. If this interpretation was correct then my suggestion that a clean and relube would likely solve the problem is not unreasonable.

If the correct interpretation was that having wound the movement gentle pressure was then applied axially to the crown such that the stem was pushed into the movement resulting in the movement running then a further investigation of the keyless works would be necessary to diagnose the problem as it would suggest that something was binding in the keyless works.

In my original response I suggested;

On 27/06/2017 at 11:45 PM, Marc said:

that a proper strip down service, clean and relube will solve the problem.

During the course of a proper service the fit and function of every part of the watch is inspected and if required, adjusted so that it works properly. I believe that my original response still holds good.

[Deggsie]

7 hours ago, Marc said:

I believe that my original response still holds good.

Marc.  I was in no way challenging your original response and was not saying the movement should not be cleaned.  If you recall, I simply stated it is better to try and establish the cause, rather than simply applying a standard process in the hope it will be the cure.  I can tell you have had a think about possible failure modes, and your explanation is very feasible.  Indeed you interpretation of the OP applying pressure to the crown in the form of a torsional pressure is, I believe a good one.  My initial interpretation of pressure on the crown was an axial pressure. I can see how the additional power transmitted into the train in this mode would overcome the friction from dry / viscous lubricant.   I agree that of course the movement would need to be a hacking type for my hypothesis to hold.   Not wishing to sound like I am picking an argument, but, not all stems are screwed fully home into the crown (as I know) especially if the stem has been replaced in its lifetime by someone who overestimated the amount of material to be removed from the stem.  Good old thread lock!  

[Svbiker]

And of course .... you assume that the crown was correctly fitted - which we cannot assume until verified. If a service / clean is the solution I am curious as to the cause. Any ideas?


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When looking at the crown, it does look like someone may have replaced it at some point? It seems rather large for the size of the case. I've never given it much thought until now. [emoji848]


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[Svbiker]

Marc.  I was in no way challenging your original response and was not saying the movement should not be cleaned.  If you recall, I simply stated it is better to try and establish the cause, rather than simply applying a standard process in the hope it will be the cure.  I can tell you have had a think about possible failure modes, and your explanation is very feasible.  Indeed you interpretation of the OP applying pressure to the crown in the form of a torsional pressure is, I believe a good one.  My initial interpretation of pressure on the crown was an axial pressure. I can see how the additional power transmitted into the train in this mode would overcome the friction from dry / viscous lubricant.   I agree that of course the movement would need to be a hacking type for my hypothesis to hold.   Not wishing to sound like I am picking an argument, but, not all stems are screwed fully home into the crown (as I know) especially if the stem has been replaced in its lifetime by someone who overestimated the amount of material to be removed from the stem.  Good old thread lock!  

The pressure that I applied to the crown was axial, only very gently. And as long as I hold it in that position it runs very well. I kept it going for around an hour and it only stopped when I relieved the pressure.


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[Geo]

Having just read the complete thread again, I suggest you at least remove the stem from the watch and see if it starts running.  If all is well it should.  

If it does there could be an issue with the stem (it may not be the correct one) and if it doesn't run a complete strip and clean is most definitely required during which time any other faults should be found.

 

[Deggsie]

11 hours ago, Svbiker said:

When looking at the crown, it does look like someone may have replaced it at some point? It seems rather large for the size of the case. I've never given it much thought until now.


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Good point.  Looking carefully at the photo, that crown does look odd in proportion - too large for its recess in the case. 

[Svbiker]

Good point.  Looking carefully at the photo, that crown does look odd in proportion - too large for its recess in the case. 

Yes, it is quite massive. [emoji23]


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[Marc]

I've only just come back to this thread.

@Deggsy apologies if I came across as over defensive, it was not my intention. One of the things that I like about WRT is that it is the least adversarial of any forums that I have taken part in. Very much a case of no offence either intended or taken, just healthy (and hopefully constructive) discussion

On 16/07/2017 at 0:14 AM, Deggsy said:

I simply stated it is better to try and establish the cause, rather than simply applying a standard process in the hope it will be the cure

You are of course right in that it is imperative to identify and rectify specific causes for specific problems. The application of a "standard process in the hope it will be the cure" without identifying the cause of the problem and applying the correct remedy is actually a road to frustration as well as less than best practise. 

However, I don't consider proper servicing to be quite as standard a process as may seem. If a watch is generally running reasonably well with no obvious faults then an effective service may simply comprise  basic cleaning, oiling and adjusting (COA). That being said even a basic service should involve proper inspection of each part for excessive or potentially problematic wear and for correct function so that potential future issues which aren't yet manifest in the function of the watch are identified and failures prevented. Any known problems should obviously be properly investigated to determine the cause and apply the correct repair.

These are processes that are a part of the "standard process" of servicing, but as it is rare that any two watches present the same set of problems it can be argued that the details of a standard service are anything but standard.

As I said, my initial interpretation of the symptoms was that additional torque caused the watch to run. An error in interpretation on my part as it turns out that the additional pressure was in fact axial and as such a COA (as opposed to a service) would have been unlikely to resolve the issue. One of the pitfalls of trying to diagnose a fault without having the watch in the hand.

On the other hand a proper service as described above would properly identify the problem and inform the correct repair. In this case my investigation would certainly focus (at least to start with) on the fit and function of the keyless works components.