Help, please with a new "old" clock

[Bill3]

A few days ago I bought a clock at a flea market.  The owner knew nothing about it, but said that he thought it was made in the USA in the 1920s.  The clock has no bezel, dial, or pendulum.  The seller gave me a pendulum which he said was from another clock.  When I got it home, I mounted and leveled it and discovered that it would run for 60 to 90 seconds.  I removed the movement from the case, soaked the movement in cleaner and after drying oiled all the pivots and the springs with clock oil.  Then I hung and leveled the movement and it will run for approximately 15 to 20 minutes.  There are no manufacturer's name on the movement.  There is a scrap of paper pasted in the top of the case, but the writing is very faded and cannot be read.  

I set the length of the pendulum so that it fit in the case and would swing without hitting the case.  

I am asking for help with how to find out why it only runs for a short time, what make and vintage the clock is and any other information about the clock.  

Thank you in advance!

Bill

[oldhippy]

Before I start I think I can see a mark under the winding arbor of the going side. Could you tell me what it is or better still If I'm right a photo, and I would also like to see the label.

Thank you.

[Bill3]

You are right!  There is a capital A stamped into the plate.  

In regard to the label inside the case, I am posting an image of it that I made by shining a light on it and placing my cell phone into the case.  Now that I look at the picture, I think I see a capital A on the label also.  

 

[oldhippy]

It is definitely American and because of the A it is made by Ansonia. I will get back tomorrow. I have seen something that looks dodgy and explain why I think it is stopping.

[Bill3]

Old Hippy, I re-read your first email and saw that you wanted to see a photo of the mark.  While photographing the A I noticed that there is something scratched into the metal plate under the other winding arbor.  It looks like a 3.  Pics of both are attached.  

[vinn3]

it may not be the original  movment.  it is common to  replace  rather than  repair.  if it needs to be "re bushed",  that may be expensive.    the  worst case is to install a battery mvt..  i suggest keep on  working with what you have.   good luck - vinn

[anilv]

If the pivots are ok you may have a bent whell pivot or some dirt blocking movement of the train. I would really look at the main spring pivots.

Also the mechanism that triggers the chimes may 'hang' . try and see if you can isolate this by raising it and letting the clock run.

When the watch stops, what does it take to make it run again.. just swing the pendulum or do you need to move the hands as well?

Anil

[anilv]

To be clear.. not so much the mainspring pivots but where the barrel rotates around the arbour... it could be a power transmission problem.

Anil

[Bill3]

Anil, when the watch stops a single push of the pendulum starts it running again for 15 to 20 minutes.  I have looked and did not see a bent wheel.  

I had not thought of the chimes as a cause of the problem.  I will try to lift the chime mechanism out of the clock motion.  I will also take a closer look at the area where the barrel rotates around the arbor.  

Thank you for these suggestions.

Bill

[anilv]

I would look for a wheel which make one rotation every 15mins and start from there.!

The centre wheel makes one revolution every hour. A problem here would result in the watch stopping every hour.

The escape wheel typically makes one rotation per minute.

The third wheel is driven off the centre wheel and spins at a rate faster than the center wheel but slower than the escape. I'm not sure of the teeth count but 3-4 revolutions per hour is reasonable. A clock stopping every 15-20minutes would indicate a problem here.

Check the third wheel, its pivots and pinion/gear-teeth. Also look at the gear-wheel itself.. it could be out of flat. Pinions are notorious for harboring dirt and stopping watches.

Another thing you can do is mark the third wheel with a sharpie.. if its stops with the wheel in the same place you've found your culprit. Fixing it is another matter.!

All the best.

Anil

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by anilv
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[clockboy]

It is almost certainly an Ansonia see link below.  I personally don,t like the open spring design of American clocks. You will need the correct equipment before dis-assembly of the mainsprings.

 

http://timesavers.com/c-325748-clock-repair-replacement-parts-movements-motors-rotors-related-mechanical-movements-related-components-8-day-movements.html

[oldhippy]

Those other marks are just repairs marks and have no significance to the maker of the clock.

A little info here for you.

http://www.antiqueansoniaclocks.com/ansonia-clock-labels.php

It's an 8 day clock with inside count wheel strike. Anchor escapement. There are several screw holes in the case which don't line up to the movement, vinn3 has mentioned about marriages it is what's known in the trade as a, clock movement and a case put together to make one. If this has happened here it is a very good one, this case has the glass panel with the letter A which we know is on the movement, but we don't know if its new or original. The way of telling would be to remove the glass and see if there is any dirt and rub marks to the glass or dirt stuck to it, if it's clean it's a replacement, there's no sign of the wording being rubbed off which I would expect to see, someone would clean the glass I would expect to see wear,  unless the wording is on the inside. Spares are plentiful for these clocks, I don't see a dial, hands or bezel but you shouldn't have a problem.

What I think is causing the problem with this movement is wear on the going side in the pivot holes and the lantern pinions. This one (see picture) looks to be the problem. As mentioned by someone you need to check the lantern pinions on all wheels for wear and all the other holes. Spring clamps are used to hold the springs while taking apart and the putting together. A lathe would be used to tidy up pivots and then polish and burnish. This is a repair for a clock repairer/maker.

I would myself just like to say a thank you to all who have made suggestions about this clock/ case and movement. This is what makes the forum unique we all like to give advice and help where we can.   

[Blacklab]

For the model range see here: http://www.antiqueansoniaclocks.com/Ansonia-Model-0820.php

[vinn3]

it  looks like an original "school  house clock" (unfortunately been  {parted out}).  don't  worry,  the  case is quite  valuable.    there might be  several vintage movments.  I will measure the pendulum on mine.  vinn

[oldhippy]

17 minutes ago, vinn3 said:

it  looks like an original "school  house clock" (unfortunately been  {parted out}).  don't  worry,  the  case is quite  valuable.    there might be  several vintage movments.  I will measure the pendulum on mine.  vinn

I would like to know what you mean by quite valuable?

[Bill3]

Well, fellow clock enthusiast it looks as if this clock is not going to be fixed.  I dislike seeing a beautiful clock leave the land of the working.  I have read all the good advise in the replies to my post and have done further reading on the major problems this clock has.  The bushings are worn and they have wallowed out larger holes in the clock plates.  Replacing bushings looks like a very difficult job, but one that could yield some satisfaction if completed.  I would like to have a go at rebushing this clock, or at least read and learn more about it.  Since this clock is not going to work anymore, it seems a likely candidate to attempt rebushing on.  

The purpose of this post is to ask for good sources of information about this project.  Books, videos, U-tube, what ever you would suggest.  I have looked on the web and found a good deal of information, but most of it superficial and in my humble opinion, not very good.  Your opinions about equipment needed for such an undertaking is also sought.  So if anyone has a source to suggest, I will certainly welcome it.  

Thank you,

Bill

 

[Blacklab]

You may have already seen these: http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Bushing_Using_Hand_Tools & http://www.davewestclocks.co.uk/Bushing.clock.plates.htm. Give it a go, after all the way to learn to do something is to actually do it.

[oldhippy]

Bill3,

I can help you to undertake this project, but it will cost a fair bit of cash for tools and parts. For starters you are going to need a lathe a hobbyist metal lathe a Unimat3 to undertake the repairing of the pivots. There are many second hand ones on ebay. Take a look and if you think you would like to go ahead I can advise you on how to go about the task, the other thing is these particular striking movements aren't the easiest to work on as a first project. A simple timepiece would be the best start, one with an enclosed mainspring.      

[Bill3]

OldHippy,

I gratefully accept your offer of help.  I have looked on EBay for a Unimat3 and only see one.  The starting bid is $750.00.  I am looking for a used one.  I have been looking at watchmaker's lathes for months now, but the Unimat3 does not look like the others I have seen.  It looks more robust and heavy.  

As for the clock to start on, the one I have is the only one I have at the present time.  I will look around and see if I can locate one with enclosed springs.  

Best regards,

Bill

[oldhippy]

I had a unimat 3 for clock work. Its not a watchmakers lathe. They are very good you can still get loads of attachments. They are big enough to hold a longcase clock arbor and with clocks they don't come any bigger. I'll have a look on ebay and see if there's a suitable good one. If I see something I will message you with the details.  

[vinn3]

both  lathes are a good idea,   they differ in the skills required to run them.  the unimat has a tool compound to make a cut,  ( see " how to run a machine lathe by Atlas tool".  the jeweler's  lathe uses a compound  rest ( much like a wood lathe)  and "gravers" -   and a good deal of skill to make an even cut.   take your time and enjoy  learning.   vinn