Mainspring winder question.

[Sayajirao]

I’m trying to restore a Timor WWII ATP watch. The movement is a Peseux 190. I’m trying to get the mainspring back in its barrel. I have a Bergeon no7 mainspring winder, which picks up the eye of the spring with no issue. Unfortunately the winder barrel is 0.2mm or so too large so the spring doesn’t transfer to the watch barrel. OK no problem, just use a no6 winder. Ah, but the winder arbour is so much smaller than the no7 that it wont pick up the spring eye, so it won’t wind. I’m guessing that there has to be a simple solution that I’m too inexperienced to recognise. Any thoughts?

[Bonefixer]

I’ve come across this sort of problem. The Bergeon universal winders aren’t always universal. 
 

Options are:

Track down a movement specific winder

Hand wind it

Buy a new mainspring - probably the best option in my view. 
 

I’ve been thinking how to invent a winder that uses the actual barrel arbor. Haven’t done it yet…

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Bonefixer said:

I’ve come across this sort of problem. The Bergeon universal winders aren’t always universal. 
 

Options are:

Track down a movement specific winder

Hand wind it

Buy a new mainspring - probably the best option in my view. 
 

I’ve been thinking how to invent a winder that uses the actual barrel arbor. Haven’t done it yet…

I think someone else has though. Some where here using a modified perspex sheet. I may be wrong i may be right , i think it involved fitting the arbor to a pin vice.

On 5/8/2024 at 7:24 PM, Sayajirao said:

I’m trying to restore a Timor WWII ATP watch. The movement is a Peseux 190. I’m trying to get the mainspring back in its barrel. I have a Bergeon no7 mainspring winder, which picks up the eye of the spring with no issue. Unfortunately the winder barrel is 0.2mm or so too large so the spring doesn’t transfer to the watch barrel. OK no problem, just use a no6 winder. Ah, but the winder arbour is so much smaller than the no7 that it wont pick up the spring eye, so it won’t wind. I’m guessing that there has to be a simple solution that I’m too inexperienced to recognise. Any thoughts?

I dont have experience of the bergeon winders, are the handles not interchangeable ?

[GuyMontag]

Did you try using the #7 winder with the #6 drum? I mix and match arbors/drums all the time.

Edited May 10 by GuyMontag

[HectorLooi]

If only the shafts of the arbors were standardized to the smallest size arbor and the arbor cap/disk standardizedto the largest, then we would have a truly universal system. This would allow any handle to fit any size winder.

But which manufacturer would be kind enough to do that?

[Bonefixer]

3 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

Did you try using the #7 winder with the #6 drum? I mix and match arbors/drums all the time.

You can use a small winder in a big drum, but not the other way round. 
 

The winder sizes are the same for adjacent barrel sizes - 5=6, 7=8 etc. 

[Waggy]

I've hit this snag a few times and my solution is to hand wind, don't be tempted to crimp in the spring so that it catches the smaller arbor - nothing but misery lies down that road. A new spring is a reasonable solution if you don't mind the wait - given my location this can be more than 2 weeks and postage is often several times the cost of the part so not very practical. Perhaps another brand of winder may not have this issue, but after the pain of buying the Bergeon generic partial set I couldn't face the cost of a second different set.

I did purchase a Chinese set when I was starting out, and lucky enough to get a set with steel arbors (most are brass), but they are caliber specific so unless you happen to be working of that specific caliber they are pretty much useless 99% of the time.

[rjenkinsgb]

I had a similar problem with a chinese set - with that, I drilled the drum out to take the slightly larger arbor; it only needed about 0.2mm increase so no detriment when using the original arbor.

(One was LH the other was RH, in that case).

[VWatchie]

9 hours ago, Bonefixer said:

Hand wind it

Excellent advice! 

Mainspring winders are generally a nightmare. In order to be absolutely sure that they work, they must be adapted for specific calibres. Sure, you can build up a collection of winders over time, but it's expensive and time-consuming and you still can't be sure that any of the ones you have in your collection will fit. When I was new, I considered buying Bergeon's large universal set because I thought it would cover all situations, but that's not the case.

The risks of hand winding a mainspring are often exaggerated. With the right technique and training, the risks are not much greater than with a winder. Moreover, if the spring has a T-shaped bridle, you may not even get it into the barrel.

Here is an excellent description by a professional how to hand wind:

10 hours ago, Bonefixer said:

Buy a new mainspring - probably the best option in my view.

Yes, a well-established practice among professional repairers is to always replace the spring even when it is in good condition. Personally, I think it is an unnecessary cost because modern springs last a very long time. Some fatigue occurs over time but if you are unsure, you can always test the power reserve. It is also an unnecessary risk to replace a spring if it is still in good condition. If an original spring is not available, it is not certain that the alloy in a generic spring corresponds to the properties of the original spring. This seems to be particularly true for some Japanese movements, especially Seiko and Orient. For any Swiss movement, I'd say the risk is non-existent.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

I had a similar problem with a chinese set - with that, I drilled the drum out to take the slightly larger arbor; it only needed about 0.2mm increase so no detriment when using the original arbor.

(One was LH the other was RH, in that case).

I  like modifications that work.

[VWatchie]

54 minutes ago, Waggy said:

I did purchase a Chinese set when I was starting out, and lucky enough to get a set with steel arbors (most are brass), but they are caliber specific so unless you happen to be working of that specific caliber they are pretty much useless 99% of the time.

I got this set from Cousins. I believe the arbors are steel and it's been working very well. Not all Chinese sets are the same. Some a decent and some are crap.

My most appreciated mainspring winder is my Master Craft Mainspring Winder:

 

Edited May 10 by VWatchie

[rjenkinsgb]

That Mastercraft one is a really nice, versatile design!

 

[LittleWatchShop]

K&D

[Kalanag]

14 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

K&D

Looks like a genious design! 

What is your experience?

Edited May 10 by Kalanag

[nickelsilver]

The K&D (Levin made the same style too, probably others as well) are a clever design and work well when you get used to them. The only issue is if you wind the spring so that the tongue goes in, there's a really good chance it slips futher and then comes out  the next slot, usually breaking off. Best to size it so you can fit it in the barrel with the tongue sticking out.

[Sayajirao]

Thanks for the various replies. Here are answers to some of the questions/suggestions 

switching the winding shafts doesn’t work because the no7 I need is significantly larger than the bore of the no6.

i do have a set of chinese winders too, but as noted they’re movement specific and none fit the bill here.

 I don’t want to replace the mainspring a)because I like to keep things as original as possible and b)where I live it’s tough to import parts so i have to wait long periods between supplies

 

so in conclusion I expect to be handwinding the spring this weekend 

[Zedster]

I've printed the 3D design from another post on this site and had good results with it.

[LittleWatchShop]

7 hours ago, Kalanag said:

Looks like a genious design! 

What is your experience?

Except for large pocket watches, this is all I use. I have made some custom arbors (easy to do on a lathe) for them in certain cases.

6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The only issue is if you wind the spring so that the tongue goes in, there's a really good chance it slips futher and then comes out  the next slot, usually breaking off.

Yup. It has happened to me. I just slow down when close to the end of the wind.

[mbwatch]

12 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

K&D

I have the 8-11mm K&D but it doesn't do a great job with modern mainsprings, or I have had terrible luck. The arbor pin protrudes too much and I have damaged more springs trying to disengage the arbor than I have successfully wound and inserted. It seems easier to use with old carbon steel springs.

My Watchctaft set gets far more use, though I have to get creative to wind left hand springs

[LittleWatchShop]

8 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I have the 8-11mm K&D but it doesn't do a great job with modern mainsprings, or I have had terrible luck. The arbor pin protrudes too much and I have damaged more springs trying to disengage the arbor than I have successfully wound and inserted. It seems easier to use with old carbon steel springs.

My Watchctaft set gets far more use, though I have to get creative to wind left hand springs

I have both sets and use the K&D 99% of the time.  Yes, you have to be careful with the pin.  I use a screwdriver to carefully release the pin from the spring.  Some skill is involved.   I have also modified/replaced the pins in the arbors as necessary.  Yeah, you would think a tool would not require modification, but such is the world of watchmaking.  There is no perfect tool. 

Edited May 11 by LittleWatchShop

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, mbwatch said:

The arbor pin protrudes too much and I have damaged more springs trying to disengage the arbor than I have successfully wound and inserted. 

The pins on those are a bit aggressive, not handed i believe.  I find them easier to unhook if i back them out where the spring begins to wind away and widen out. There's also a trick to stop them snapping around to the openings, its also a good idea to soften the edges of the 3 closure prongs.

[mbwatch]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The pins on those are a bit aggressive, not handed i believe. 

No, not handed. That's why I bought it I think. I assumed I would work on more Japanese movements with left wound springs, but that hasn't turned out to be the case. I think the only left wound movements I have ever done are HMT (Citizen). I've considered filing down the arbor pins a bit but don't want to ruin it. Occasionally I see a set of the K&D arbors alone show up for sale and maybe I should buy some to modify.

Edited May 11 by mbwatch

[LittleWatchShop]

18 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

I've considered filing down the arbor pins a bit but don't want to ruin it.

you can push out the old pins and replace with new pins on "most" arbors.  I have seen a few where they were "pinched" rather than pinned.  Also, you can push out the entire arbor from the knurled knob and turn a new arbor, pin it to your desire.  Very flexible...IF you have a lathe.

[Neverenoughwatches]

18 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

No, not handed. That's why I bought it I think. I assumed I would work on more Japanese movements with left wound springs, but that hasn't turned out to be the case. I think the only left wound movements I have ever done are HMT (Citizen). I've considered filing down the arbor pins a bit but don't want to ruin it. Occasionally I see a set of the K&D arbors alone show up for sale and maybe I should buy some to modify.

I really like these adjustable winders, in particular the multiple choice of arbor sizes within the same winding nut. Mine are the Star brand but that is more than likely just a retail name. If you find the spring ends snapping from slot to slot then just release some of the tension, let the spring unwind a little and then feed the end in by hand. A drop of oil on the insides of the prongs and ease off the edges of them makes them less harsh, but no personally i would leave the arbor hooks alone, try backing them out where the spring isn't so tight as it is at the very end, I've had the hooks release completely this way. 

[mbwatch]

43 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

IF you have a lathe

I do not! And that purchase is far in the future for me.