Ruducing high rate on Waltham model 1894

[mewherman]

I am working on a Waltham 1894, it was in poor shape and so the movement is a bit of a mongrel, hair spring from one train wheel bridge from another and so on. I've gotten it to run sorta ok (best of three mainsprings) Trouble is it runs way too fast like 14 minutes fast. I've gotten it down a but by adjusting the mean time screws but I have it running with the screws all the way out as far as they can go with the regulater all the way slow. So is my only option to attempt finding timing washers? Or is there something wrong with my diagnostics.

[JohnR725]

46 minutes ago, mewherman said:

hair spring from

in other words that's not the hairspring for that balance wheel it came from somewhere else?

47 minutes ago, mewherman said:

too fast like 14 minutes fast.

providing the hairspring is flat and not touching the balance arm or the over coil isn't rubbing on the upper bridge. Yes it's common for over coil hairsprings to not be exactly where there supposed to be and their hard to see that they are where there supposed to be.

Normally if you are running really fast around 15 minutes it would be because you are missing one of the timing screws. Timing screws have to come in pairs one on one side one on the other if one falls out about 15 minutes is how fast you'd be running. check your balance wheel to make sure all your screws are there in pairs.

usually not this fast but you do want to be careful that the balance arms form a nice round circle often times with bimetallic balance wheels people will squeeze them and the wheel will not be round that causes interesting timing problems but not usually as dramatic as this.

then just a reminder on modern watches with flat hairsprings a procedure called hairspring vibrating adjusts the hairspring to that exact balance wheel. If you look at parts list for modern watches you typically never see the hairspring separate. In the case of vintage with over coil hairsprings to get the hairspring into the exact shape it's easier to pre-make them. Then the factory would match the balance wheel to that hairspring.

then because hairsprings were available separately back then you would also have things like this assortment of screws. Notice in the image the screws are rated per hour and came in either gold usually found a nicer great balance wheels and standard brass. So like your watches about 14 seconds per hour you would mix-and-match the screws to match your balance wheel to your new hairspring.

 

56 minutes ago, mewherman said:

I've gotten it down a but by adjusting the mean time screws but I have it running with the screws all the way out as far as they can go with the regulater all the way slow.

so this is why this isn't working the mean time screws are fine adjustment not meant for matching the balance wheel to the hairspring.

oh thinking of assortments is another image out of the catalog it's a shame they overlap the images

notice the reference to strengths even for your model of watch? Then unfortunately they covered up part of the image at the bottom but there's a reference to the type is screws found on the balance wheel.

57 minutes ago, mewherman said:

So is my only option to attempt finding timing washers?

the idea would be to find timing screws otherwise you could do a timing washers but typically the maximum effect they have would be three minutes per day and you're going to need a few of them. Then ideally you're only supposed to put one washer under each screw head is not good the double up not that it can't be done but you're really not supposed to.

another option you have here is if you still have the other balance wheel see if you have some slightly bigger or heavier screws and do a little mixing and matching just remember to keep them in pairs or you're going to have a heck of a poising issue.

[mewherman]

31 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

in other words that's not the hairspring for that balance wheel it came from somewhere else?

Yes, the hair spring is from a different balance from the same model movement I have. I have three 1894 movements. The original hairspring had issues with sticking together for whatever reason. So I simply swapped it out in favour of farting around with the hairspring. The Henry B Fried book claims a half turn on the timing screws could make a change of a minute, so I rather assumed that turning them out as much as I have would have improved it more than It did, but sadly not. I suppose since I have the original hairspring, I could try and repair that one, and it should theoretically be "matched" to the balance. I had no idea the hairsprings were matched, I assumed since they were the "same" model it should be interchangeable. Visually, the spring looks perfect. I'll take another look under the microscope at it, but I didn't see any issues. Perhaps the old spring is magnetized, that would be simple.

Oh wait, since I have additional balances, can't I just add more screws? There are many extra holes in the balance.

[JohnR725]

43 minutes ago, mewherman said:

had issues with sticking together

it be nice to give us a picture so we can get a second opinion as to what we think? Sticking together it could be magnetism because that's a steel spring. or conceivably a really bad lubrication that hasn't been rinsed off or clean off. Or more likely possibly it's as a inappropriate bend someplace. This is always fun to track down where the problem is on the hairspring.

45 minutes ago, mewherman said:

I had no idea the hairsprings were matched

don't worry about this everybody new to watch repair will have hairspring issues and this question comes up a lot.

47 minutes ago, mewherman said:

Oh wait, since I have additional balances, can't I just add more screws? There are many extra holes in the balance.

yes sort of? Remember my experience is usually one missing screw and your fast about 15 minutes at least on 18 size pocket watch it may be less on a smaller watch perhaps. See if you have a pair of really small screws smaller in diameter shorter in length and you can try just one of them initially to see if it's going to have the effects you don't have to be playing with both of them. Often times you look at the watches and there will be these half blank screws for this very reason as the factory had infinite quantity of sizes that we don't get to have.

49 minutes ago, mewherman said:

The Henry B Fried book claims a half turn on the timing screws could make a change of a minute,

sad thing is Henry's not around to ask questions anymore. But when he was around he was a very interesting person to talk to. But this is watch repair it's filled with lots and lots and lots of variations. For instance Hamilton has an interesting technical guide which I've attached. Let's look at the last page where they talk about at least for Hamilton watches the effect of the mean time screws and you'll notice there seems to be some variations. So LB variations between all the brands because the screws sizes will be slightly different. You also notice there's a reference to you can order your timing washers from Hamilton at one time. Plus the timing washers are not an exact science either. I'll have a watch running superfast and guestimate and put the timing washers on it then find that there are not the exact minutes they claim to be sentenced to be some variations there

 

hamilton_tech_note_on_regulation technical data 124.pdf

[oldhippy]

If the balance and hairspring have not been vibrated you are on to a looser. You have a hairspring that is too strong, even adding weight is not enough again it's because the hairspring is too strong. You need a matching pair from the same cal movement for it to work. 

[Nucejoe]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

if you have some slightly bigger or heavier screws and do a little mixing and matching just remember to keep them in pairs or you're going to have a heck of a poising issue.

 Thats if we are sure , the balance to begin with is in poise .

But, no problem as we have plenty time to be

5 hours ago, mewherman said:

 farting around 

and learn.

 

[mewherman]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

t be nice to give us a picture so we can get a second opinion as to what we think? Sticking together it could be magnetism because that's a steel spring. or conceivably a really bad lubrication that hasn't been rinsed off or clean off. Or more likely possibly it's as a inappropriate bend someplace. This is always fun to track down where the problem is on the hairspring.

It was only stuck together when it was in the balance cock, it had only two strands stuck together. When inspected on its own, it looked totally fine. Definitely wasn't lubrication, as it has been cleaned both in the cleaning machine and then again in one dip and then one dip a second time in an attempt to stop it sticking.

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

yes sort of? Remember my experience is usually one missing screw and your fast about 15 minutes at least on 18 size pocket watch it may be less on a smaller watch perhaps. See if you have a pair of really small screws smaller in diameter shorter in length and you can try just one of them initially to see if it's going to have the effects you don't have to be playing with both of them. Often times you look at the watches and there will be these half blank screws for this very reason as the factory had infinite quantity of sizes that we don't get to have.

If I put just one extra screw on, isn't that going to throw the balance off poise very badly?

Edited March 30 by mewherman

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, mewherman said:

It was only stuck together when it was in the balance cock,

if they hairspring looks perfect out of the watch then they hairspring is fine. If the hairspring does not look perfect in the watch they hairspring is still fine but it's probably bent at the stud. In other words it's very common for people new to watch repair and other times where it gets bent and that's the commonplace. So I would put the balance wheel with the old hairspring back in the watch and carefully study the problem before bending anything.

1 hour ago, mewherman said:

If I put just one extra screw on, isn't that going to throw the balance off poise very badly?

yes is going to hopelessly screw up the poise. But you're trying to figure out which screws to use. So if you were to take a small screw if you had a small screw and place it on the balance wheel and you slowed down by about around seven minutes plus or minus a couple of minutes that tells you that this is a good screw and you can put the other one on as opposed to trying a pair and seeing what happens but if you want to do them in pairs fine. I just find that the more you play with screws and the balance wheel the more likely accidents can occur to even do a quick check and only do the timing either dial up or dial down where the poise is not to show up you can see if you're getting close at all.

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Thats if we are sure , the balance to begin with is in poise

typically with American pocket watches unless their railroad grade they're not poised because people of played with them. But current lay the drama is to get the watch within a reasonable timing range. Then it will definitely have to be poised because somebody's been playing with their mean time screws and that would definitely screw the poise up if they were not turned out in exact amounts like they're supposed to be.

So the procedure would be to see what we can do to get the balance wheel close to time. Timing screws are screws off the other balance wheel be the fastest way you might have to do a little mixing and matching in other words you try a screw what does it do if you can figure out if you have a light or heavy screwing your balance wheel you maybe take your screw often swap with these and yes for poise ultimately they all have to be in pairs and matched. But it's really fast just try one screw.

Then once you're reasonably close for timekeeping we can do a quick dynamic poising to see if you're going to have to static poise. If the watches grossly often poise static poising is a lot faster to get things close and then finish up with dynamic poising. Often times people think dynamic poising is the perfect solution and they end up hopelessly lost and will have to go back to static poising to clean up the mess they've made. Then yes static poising really does work I can usually get within about 15 seconds with static poising and I'm not even obsessed with doing that perfectly.

[oldhippy]

If you are adding poising screws to the balance they must be identical and in weight and on both sides of the balance and screwed in by the same amount of turn. if not the balance will not be in poise.

[mewherman]

Well I added two small size (smallest I had) screws of equal weight opposite and removed two timing washers which were on opposite sides and on equal screws. I also cranked the timing screws all the way in. I was able to achieve this result. I'm quite please for a junker movement, it's a Waltham 1894 7 jewel with a grade 220 train bridge so it's a 9 jewel (basically rail grade in my house)

[oldhippy]

What is the time keeping in 24 hours? 

[mewherman]

13 hours ago, oldhippy said:

What is the time keeping in 24 hours? 

Was still right on time this morning.

[oldhippy]

Excellent.