400 day clocks

[dnhb]

Could someone please tell me how the vertical position of the Fork on the torsion spring affects the clock's performance?

[watchweasol]

Hi. Moving the fork higher creates a shallow lock which leads to fluttering ( skipping teeth on the escape wheel) giving the appearance of the clock gaining. Likewise the lower it gets ithe lock gets deeper and will eventually stop th clock.

If you intend to work on these clocks it is almost imperative to have at hand Terwilligers book on 400 day clocks . The 400 Day Clock Repair Guide cost around £30.00. The latest is the tenth edition.  The book gives you the relative positioning of the fork on most of the known models of this type of clock plus a lot more. Definitly worth the money

[nevenbekriev]

Well, I am not sure if the question is asked correctly. I guess that the word 'fork' is used for the part that is attached to the suspension spring and actually collaborates with the fork. I don't know what is the name of this part in English, but hope that if I call it 'leader' will not be much away from the truth...

So, answering the question now is not simple, as this kind of clocks are something that is not straight forward to regulate, but the adjustments of one thing always leads to changes of the other things adjustments. Something more - this clocks are (according to only my opinion) something strange, and have not much to do with horology, but they are a more like a sort of attraction, to amuse and entertain the public...

Now to the point.

I will use some terms that I will name now. The first is 'minimal amplitude'. This is the amplitude of the pendulum swinging where the movement still works. If amplitude reduced, the pendulum will continue to swing by itself for about half hour and will stop by itself, but the movement will not 'tick'.

The second is 'working amplitude'. This is the amplitude that will settle for half hour after the clock was started and will not change any more, the clock will work normally after that.

The minimal amplitude should be more than 120 degr., usually about 150 or even 180 in some cases. If less than 120, then the clock will be not 'attractive'. Further more, the bigger amplitude means better isochronism.

The working amplitude should be at least 10-15 degr. higher than the minimal amplitude. This guarantees reliable work. Also, this additional 10-15 degr. that pendulum makes after each 'tick' should be equal in both directions of pendulum swinging, this is of critical importance and is regulated by slight turning of the upper suspension.

Now, the higher the 'leader' is placed on the spring, the higher the minimal amplitude will be. On the other hand, the working amplitude depends on the portions of energy that the pendulum receives with every tick and on the losses of energy for unlocking the escapement and from air and internal spring friction. So, the working amplitude has limited value and it depends on the main spring strenght and the escapement adjustment. The clock will work reliably if the minimal amplitude is less than the working amplitude. So, if no idea where the leader must stay on the spring, I will advice first to put it by eye, then check what the minimal amplitude is and correct the position of leader as to reach about 150 degr. for the minimal a., then check if the clock will work and what the working a. will be. And, if needed, to reduce the minimal a. by lowering the leader, or, if the working amplitude is high enough, to increase minimal a. by lifting the leader. The higher the leader is, the better isochronism will be.

The things may seem simple by now, but they actually are not. This is because the lower the leader is, the risk of the 'fluttering' effect arises. Fluttering happens when the pendulum crosses the 'zero' position. So, checking for fluttering is when the pendulum has stopped - decline the leader by some tool and release it suddenly. If fluttering happens, then one of this 2 things must be done: making the escapement a little bit deeper (by moving the lever closer to the 'scape wheel or moving the pallet(s) to the wheel) OR moving the leader higher on the spring. The bad thing here is that both this things lead to increasing of the minimal amplitude. So, making the clock working reliably sometimes is hard and tricky and is question of trial and error iterations. This is especially when the main spring has gone weaker with the years.

[dnhb]

Thanks, Nev. I've been asked by a local Charity shop if I can get one they had donated to work. One of the attractions is indeed the number of interrelated factors one has to juggle with. Having got the fork/leader in a position where the amplitude seemed OK & the movement 'in beat' I was dissapointed to be confronted by intermittent 'fluttering'. Rather than moving the Fork along the spring, I decided to try another of the mechanism's many degrees of freedom and angled it upwards to be perpendicular to the 'spindle' on the escapement arbour. This cured the fluttering & left it 'in beat' with an amplitude just over 180 degrees. One residual issue is the slight nutation of the pendulum (although its 'leg' remains within the boundary of the locking cylinder). I imagine this is caused by the spring not being exactly aligned with the upper/lower blocks that grip its ends but I'm reluctant to fiddle with this in case I damage the spring!

[oldhippy]

The fork is the part that goes ether side of the long tail to the pallets 

[dnhb]

4 hours ago, oldhippy said:

The fork is the part that goes ether side of the long tail to the pallets 

That's what I'd understood the term to refer to. I invented the term "spindle" in my 2nd post for "the long tail" but on 'my' clock it's attached to the anchor arbour not directly to the anchor.

[watchweasol]

The fork is a Old Hippy explained, there should be minimum space between the fork

k and the anchor pin and just a smear of oil

[dnhb]

On 3/25/2024 at 6:50 PM, watchweasol said:

The fork is a Old Hippy explained, there should be minimum space between the fork

k and the anchor pin and just a smear of oil

Thanks. Do you mean the fork should be as close as possible vertically to the anchor arbour; or horizontally to the 'backward sloping' spindle of the anchor arbour ?

[oldhippy]

It should be as you see in the photo. watchweasol has told you about oil this is to prevent friction and it prevents fluttering. 

Edited March 27 by oldhippy

[Dell]

dnhb

Okay all I repair & restore are torsion ( Anniversary) clocks altering the fork height alters not only the amount of rotation but also the supplementary ark ( amount pendulum turns after escape), there is a so called sweet spot for fork position, .to low it flutters to high it won’t run , there also must be a very small gap between fork tines and anchor pin when fork fully left or right ( I use a slip of paper ), the most important thing is supplementary ark not total rotation, I start by getting the clock to run with fork to low ( but fluttering) then raise it 1/2 to 1mm if it still flutters then I raise it a bit more until it runs but without fluttering, I must also stress that as these clocks are very marginal on power then everything must be as friction free as possible and as someone said get the Horolovar 400 day repair guide but be aware there are quite a few errors in it including wrong dating .

I restore lots of torsion clocks for other clockmakers because most won’t touch them but I love doing them and yes they can be frustrating at times but that’s a challenge for me , if you need help just ask.

i do not use oil on the fork, anchor pin, escape wheel or anchor and I use thin Mobil 1 engine oil on mainspring ( not grease ), watch oil on pivots .

Dell

Edited March 27 by Dell

[oldhippy]

In the repair book by Charles Terwilliger diagrams show you where the fork should be on the suspension spring  follow that and you shouldn't need to keep moving the fork up or down beside by playing around you can easily kink the suspension spring.  

[Dell]

5 hours ago, oldhippy said:

In the repair book by Charles Terwilliger diagrams show you where the fork should be on the suspension spring  follow that and you shouldn't need to keep moving the fork up or down beside by playing around you can easily kink the suspension spring.  

Most times the position is ok from the book but I find it more a starting point , also not every clock has the torsion spring layout , in that case I add the top block then hang it on the saddle put the pendulum on the base on something about 6mm thick then cut the torsion spring just above the hook on the top of the pendulum .

Dell

[oldhippy]

Its been over 25 years since I gave up horology in my time there were not so many of them about and the book I had I only found one mistake and that was with a miniature movement the suspension spring was too strong. All those I repaired the spring layout was printed. I certainly would not have touched those horrid battery ones.     

[Dell]

I am same as you oldhippy I won’t touch anything with a battery, I keep getting requests to but I just say I only do mechanical clocks, there are quite a few errors & omissions with the repair guide have a look at this.

https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Encyclopedia-Subjects/Torsion-Clocks/Book:Horolovar-400-Day-Clock-Repair-Guide-10th-Edition-Errors-and-Updates

[watchweasol]

Hi.  I would like to take issue here regarding battery driven , watches, clocks,etc. I will and do repair these clocks in fact I have sever al in my collection as well as the regular mechanical ones. I have one on my mantle piece over 60 years old tha belonged to my wife’s Aunt,  long gone Iam afraid and it has been cleaned etc and never missed a beat and is accurate. Every one has their preduices as regards Electrical /electronic Horology but I regard it as part of the progress time line of the art of Horology and to be treated as such. Like Darwin’s theory of evolution it evolved.  Two cavemen knocking rocks together and a shard broke off , looking at it he worked out if it was stuck on the end of a stick he would have a spear. Likewise his pal seeing what he was up to picked up a piece  and did the same, now that’s evolution. Some clockmaker decided to build a clock that ran with a battery and no spring to wind up and break, progress and both the mechanical and battery driven clocks evolved, the battery ones got better to the point that if it broke you changed the complete unit. Likewise watches did the same but both can be repaired by people who approach Horology with an open mind without preduice.  We all have our likes and dislikes bu I for one would never dismiss any technology because I don’t like it.   The mobile phone is a good example of modern technology at work as is the automotive industry. There buttons and switches in my car I don’t use because to me they are not nesessary but I still drive the car.

[oldhippy]

Dell fancy a challenge

  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285785684626?itmmeta=01HT29WVJY21Q94C73GYHGBTFX&hash=item428a277a92:g:15YAAOSwNRVmBAUz&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0DIe4QLQBW66rSyIMiyBuk8GY%2B86pQ%2BQnxGbcNq7egAGe5DIs9YMmiWJIbZtMSxwNJIiJxuojbq523IeUSBQ6pJEIQ0tfz2ChrBR03BksmKINyklg1IK4GAfAcYY9Hta9wVeSZSZN7ZCNAfZTgKs9c4%2BUIUZ3Qjc3QjUXDn2uPRo1FiYOEewMG5A26EXb%2BclBgrqtbOmM6P3bea%2F8ZImOAXNI1HtbmtMk84pIGoM6ISwaM1PKFuADtTFMccS5e3ZjndCbXYXHrW3CecsV0edw3M%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8q588nQYw

Darwin’s theory of evolution has not been proven to be absolutely.   

[Dell]

48 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Dell fancy a challenge

  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285785684626?itmmeta=01HT29WVJY21Q94C73GYHGBTFX&hash=item428a277a92:g:15YAAOSwNRVmBAUz&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0DIe4QLQBW66rSyIMiyBuk8GY%2B86pQ%2BQnxGbcNq7egAGe5DIs9YMmiWJIbZtMSxwNJIiJxuojbq523IeUSBQ6pJEIQ0tfz2ChrBR03BksmKINyklg1IK4GAfAcYY9Hta9wVeSZSZN7ZCNAfZTgKs9c4%2BUIUZ3Qjc3QjUXDn2uPRo1FiYOEewMG5A26EXb%2BclBgrqtbOmM6P3bea%2F8ZImOAXNI1HtbmtMk84pIGoM6ISwaM1PKFuADtTFMccS5e3ZjndCbXYXHrW3CecsV0edw3M%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8q588nQYw

Darwin’s theory of evolution has not been proven to be absolutely.   

Yes I have that in my watch list a JUF if cheap enough I will have a go , if nothing else it will be good for spares, I have a few JUF’s

Edited March 28 by Dell
Forgot picture

[dnhb]

On 3/27/2024 at 9:32 AM, Dell said:

...there also must be a very small gap between fork tines and anchor pin when fork fully left or right..... if you need help just ask....

 

Many thanks for your advice (being borne in mind at present) & offer Dell. When I was given the clock the plastic anchor was loose on the arbour (it had split at the 'hole') &, after repairing this, I have been trying to determine whether the spindle (pin) should be perpendicular when the pallet is sitting on a flat surface; or whether, when installed, its L-R extremes (or alternatively its tick & tock points) should lie at equal angles from the vertical when moved with spring absent. I can get the clock to run but in every such configuration the top block has to be turned anti-clockwise (from above) by quite a bit in order to be 'in beat' & it always runs fast (despite the pendulum being set to as slow as possible). This makes me wonder if there is any particular feature of/fault in a torsion spring clock which determines which turn direction (if any) is necessary to get it 'in beat'; & whether there would be a different set of settings that would get it running nearer to time at somewhere around the mid timing/inertia position which would then allow tweaking of the fast/slow setting.

[Dell]

1 hour ago, dnhb said:

Many thanks for your advice (being borne in mind at present) & offer Dell. When I was given the clock the plastic anchor was loose on the arbour (it had split at the 'hole') &, after repairing this, I have been trying to determine whether the spindle (pin) should be perpendicular when the pallet is sitting on a flat surface; or whether, when installed, its L-R extremes (or alternatively its tick & tock points) should lie at equal angles from the vertical when moved with spring absent. I can get the clock to run but in every such configuration the top block has to be turned anti-clockwise (from above) by quite a bit in order to be 'in beat' & it always runs fast (despite the pendulum being set to as slow as possible). This makes me wonder if there is any particular feature of/fault in a torsion spring clock which determines which turn direction (if any) is necessary to get it 'in beat'; & whether there would be a different set of settings that would get it running nearer to time at somewhere around the mid timing/inertia position which would then allow tweaking of the fast/slow setting.

The anchor pin should be perpendicular when the anchor is sat on a flat surface and if you post a close up picture of the backplate I will be able to tell you the correct torsion spring , running fast or slow is usually wrong Torsion spring.

Here is a video from my YouTube channel showing how I set the beat

 

[dnhb]

7 hours ago, Dell said:

....if you post a close up picture of the backplate I will be able to tell you the correct torsion spring.

Thanks again, Dell. I'd already enjoyed your set of 8 YT videos! Photo attached.

[Dell]

It looks to be plate 1520 and there are 4  with that number but they all take the same torsion spring 0.003” Horolovar.

Dell

[dnhb]

4 hours ago, Dell said:

It looks to be plate 1520 and there are 4  with that number but they all take the same torsion spring 0.003” Horolovar.

Dell

That's 0.0762mm - the one on the clock measures 0.081mm ! Really very grateful to you, Dell

9 minutes ago, dnhb said:

That's 0.0762mm - the one on the clock measures 0.081mm ! Really very grateful to you, Dell

Dell: Just remembered one of your videos showed how to reduce the thickness of a torsion spring so I think I'll give that a go before buying a new one....

[nevenbekriev]

On 3/29/2024 at 1:45 PM, dnhb said:

That's 0.0762mm - the one on the clock measures 0.081mm ! Really very grateful to you, Dell

Dell: Just remembered one of your videos showed how to reduce the thickness of a torsion spring so I think I'll give that a go before buying a new one....

I thought I am the inventor of thinning torsion springs... My advice is to use this kind of tool to strain the spring in order to avoid the risk of curling it.

Then, just piece of grit 1000 sanding paper needed, folded in two with the sanding surface inside. Squeeze it between fingers and slide it on the spring 2-3 times fully from one end to the other. Then try the period of the pendulum. !!! it is easy to overdo thinning and make pendulum too slow !!!

[Dell]

The most important part to get thinned is between the top block and fork as this is the bit that does the work.

Dell

[oldhippy]

When I was into the repair side of clocks back in the 70's & 80's Horolovar covered all the spring strengths. If previous repairs had been playing around with the mainsprings or the pendulum then you had problems, but that hardly happened with me. I did have one where someone had taken a file to a 4 ball pendulum and filed the size down by giving two flat bottoms.