Wash and go

[rossjackson01]

Cleaning procedure

Since I began I have learned how important it is to clean the watch parts. I can't afford a cleaning machine. I have made my own variation.

 

My system on disassembly.

Pegwood and fibre brush if needed.

Large items into base of lighter fluid holder (No. 1 jar).

Place all items into baskets then add them into the lighter fluid jar.

Ultrasonic for 6 minutes.

 

Remove shellac items and dip into Isopropyl alcohol for 30 seconds and blow dry.

Place all other items into isopropyl alcohol fluid jar (No. 2 jar)

Ultrasonic for 6 minutes

 

Remove all baskets and items and blow dry in warm air from nail drier for up to 10 minutes

Place all item back into parts holder and check items individually.

Reassemble

 

 

Edited February 5 by rossjackson01
Spelling, Grammar

[watchweasol]

Hi Ross. A sound method for cleaning and drying, the nail dryer is an ideal solution to careful drying process.as the heat is gentle not over powerful.   Well done.   Who needs a machine. Eh.

[Neverenoughwatches]

43 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Cleaning procedure

Since I began I have learned how important it is to clean the watch parts. I can't afford a cleaning machine. I have made my own variation.

 

My system on disassembly.

Pegwood and fibre brush if needed.

Large items into base of lighter fluid holder (No. 1 jar).

Place all items into baskets then add them into the lighter fluid jar.

Ultrasonic for 6 minutes.

 

Remove shellac items and dip into Isopropol alcohol for 30 seconds and blow dry.

Place all other items into isopropl alcohol fluid jar (No. 2 jar)

Ultrasonic for 6 minutes

 

Remove all baskets and items and blow dry in warm air from nail drier for up to 10 minutes

Place all item back into parts holder and check items individually.

Reassemble

 

 

I very nearly bought one of those nail driers, i could not fully determine if they blew warm or cold air, but i really liked the idea. Instead i made a vertical warm air tunnel with a hairdrier underneath and hang a basket holder above it which swings on its own from the blown air. When you next order from cousins take a look at these plastic basket holders, they are cheap as chips, hold 4 mesh baskets, plates and bridges can be loaded on their own so get a good blasting. Just easier to lift out all the baskets in one go, you could even stack the holders , never had an issue up to now with a cleaning solution reaction to the plastic.  There are valid trains of thought that the sonic waves have to penetrate 3 levels of material, glass then plastic then mesh basket. I compensate for this by using tins instead on glass.  Steel seems to have the best conduction of the cavitation bubbles from the US. You could even make your own basket carrier from a steel screw top lid. The big mesh baskets are about £6

[Endeavor]

For years I've been using Zippo lighter fluid. I recently bought a 2nd hand Elma S15H ultra-sonic and purchased Elma WF Pro cleaning fluid and Elma Suprol Rinse.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/elma-wf-pro-cleaner?code=R37683

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/elma-suprol-rinse

What a world of difference these Elma chemicals make.

My big regret is that I've should have purchased these products years ago

[rossjackson01]

25 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

For years I've been using Zippo lighter fluid. I recently bought a 2nd hand Elma S15H ultra-sonic and purchased Elma WF Pro cleaning fluid and Elma Suprol Rinse.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/elma-wf-pro-cleaner?code=R37683

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/elma-suprol-rinse

What a world of difference these Elma chemicals make.

My big regret is that I've should have purchased these products years ago

Perhaps you can answer this question please. Does using those products mean that you can leave the balance cock in situ, and leave the pallet fork in the basket for both processes?

If so, which is the equal of the lighter fluid and which is the equal of the isopropyl. 

Whilst I would never purchase an Elma, or similar machine, I would contemplate a use of the fluids if they complied with my intentions.

Thank you

[tomh207]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

Perhaps you can answer this question please. Does using those products mean that you can leave the balance cock in situ, and leave the pallet fork in the basket for both processes?

If so, which is the equal of the lighter fluid and which is the equal of the isopropyl. 

Whilst I would never purchase an Elma, or similar machine, I would contemplate a use of the fluids if they complied with my intentions.

Thank you

Hey Ross, the cleaning fluid is the equivalent of your lighter fluid and the rinse is the equivalent of your isopropyl.

 

Tom

[rossjackson01]

17 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Hey Ross, the cleaning fluid is the equivalent of your lighter fluid and the rinse is the equivalent of your isopropyl.

 

Tom

Thank you.

If the rinse is the same a isopropyl, can the balance with the shellac, and Pallet fork with the shellac, be used in the rinse without harm?  At present, whilst I put the  balance and pallet fork into the Lighter fluid I do not immerse them in the isopropyl wash.

If they they can be left, it would save me having to remove the balance from the plate after the lighter fluid clean. Would save a possible 'ping'. 

 

Endeavour

I do notice that he cleaner carries the caveat "As a non aqueous solvent it should not be used in ultrasonic tanks". Does this mean I could not put the jar of the cleaner in my ultrasonic? Do you use your cleaner in the ultrasonic?

Edited February 5 by rossjackson01
More information

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

Perhaps you can answer this question please. Does using those products mean that you can leave the balance cock in situ, and leave the pallet fork in the basket for both processes?

If so, which is the equal of the lighter fluid and which is the equal of the isopropyl. 

Whilst I would never purchase an Elma, or similar machine, I would contemplate a use of the fluids if they complied with my intentions.

Thank you

Tbh ross the cost of the cleaning fluid is probably close to the cost of your lighter fluid. If i remember lighter fluid works out around £12 /  litre when bought in numerous small tins, the cleaner is maybe a little more expensive.  The rinse I'm not sure about, i like isopropyl, i think i paid £18 for 5 litres. For balance and pallet i went with the b dip equivalent which has been suggested is tetrachloroethylene or perc drycleaning fluid. 

[rossjackson01]

17 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

For balance and pallet i went with the b dip equivalent which has been suggested is tetrachloroethylene or perc drycleaning fluid. 

Does this mean that you don't put those items in the lighter fluid. Sorry to question, but I don't understand the process you use.

[Endeavor]

2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Does using those products mean that you can leave the balance cock in situ, and leave the pallet fork in the basket for both processes?

As far as I'm aware, both fluids are shellac "save". That's to say, I do no more than 5 min per ultra-sonic cycle. I have one (165ml) jar with cleaning fluid (Elma WF pro) and two (165ml) jars with Elma Suprol rinse. I give a basket filled with parts 5 minutes in the cleaning fluid (WF pro), blow the basket clean, then the basket goes 5 min in the first Rinse. After 5 min, I blow the basket clean and it goes in the (optional) 2nd rinse. Once that's all done, I hand-dip the basket in the IPA and quickly (especially with the pallet-fork and the balance) take the parts out of the basket and blow them dry.

How to do the balance is still a bit of a question mark? I left the balance in situ c/w the anti-shock jewels, I also cleaned the balance separately and I left the balance in situ without the anti-shock jewels. All options went fine, but I'm not sure which of the three options is the best? With the anti-shock jewels separate, I experience this: https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/28547-these-rubber-bellow-hand-blowers-do-suck-/#comment-240948

It seems, and to make sure that the anti-shocks are 100% clean, that one has to do the anti-shock jewels (by hand) separately in IPA.

2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

If so, which is the equal of the lighter fluid and which is the equal of the isopropyl. 

To me the Elma WF pro (cleaning fluid) seems to be the most "aggressive", but that may also be due to the ammonia smell. The Elma Suprol is to flush the Elma WF pro out, and to make sure, I use two rinses in two separated jars; Rinse 1 and Rinse 2. The 2nd rinse seems optional, but I do it anyway, just to make sure.

I don't think that any of both Elma chemicals are directly "decremental" to shellac, or at least not so as IPA is. But as I understood from others, you don't want to leave any of the watch parts in the WF pro too long either. Up to 5 minutes cycles seem to be safe.

Also these two Elma chemicals are non-water based. One has to make sure that there is no cross-contamination between the water in the ultra-sonic tank and the fluids in the jars.

Perhaps other members may have different idea's or other cleaning procedures? I'm a bit experimenting too what's the best procedure.

However, from what I've done so far, the results with these chemicals are very good !

Before;

After;

and the same results I get with the wheel-train, screws etc.

Everything comes out sparkling clean

55 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

I do notice that he cleaner carries the caveat "As a non aqueous solvent it should not be used in ultrasonic tanks". Does this mean I could not put the jar of the cleaner in my ultrasonic? Do you use your cleaner in the ultrasonic?

If WF Pro was not suitable for ultra-sonic, why do they sell it in shops specialized in ultra-sonic? Perhaps, it is not a good idea in the ultra-sonic tank directly. That would be, due to the volume needed, quite costly too. But in jars .... ?

I bought my chemicals by SKsonic in Germany: https://www.sksonic.de/

I do hope that your German is up to spec

Edited February 5 by Endeavor

[Malocchio]

I agree on ditching the alternative chemicals and going with the "real stuff". Horror stories of ammonia stink kept me away from them for too long. I use L&R 566 and it is pretty apartment friendly. Non-ammoniated but there is a little ammonia like smell. I rinse with L&R #3 rinse and both are shellac safe.  Finally a quick and harmless rinse in IPA.

[Endeavor]

2 minutes ago, Malocchio said:

Non-ammoniated but there is a little ammonia like smell.

Same with the Elma WF pro, there is an ammonia smell, but it's not that one has to open all the doors and windows ........ far from it

I'm also glad that I made the switch to the "real stuff"

 

 

[rossjackson01]

Thank you folks. It seems to me that to alter my own system would cause me more problems that I would want. The only down side of mine, is that, after the Lighter fluid clean, I need to remove the balance from the plate and the pallet fork out. On two occasions I forgot and did the final rinse for 1 ultrasonic cycle in Isopropyl before I realised. Fortunately nothing happened to the balance or forks. 

As can be seen from my photographs, I now have a mark on my No. 2 jar saying 'No shellac'.

I note the costings. I have enough for the next 3 years.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

Does this mean that you don't put those items in the lighter fluid. Sorry to question, but I don't understand the process you use.

Yes Ross, i use a seperate  chemical called perc for the shellaced items. Elma pro wf for cleaning and ipa for rinsing everything else.

19 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Thank you folks. It seems to me that to alter my own system would cause me more problems that I would want. The only down side of mine, is that, after the Lighter fluid clean, I need to remove the balance from the plate and the pallet fork out. On two occasions I forgot and did the final rinse for 1 ultrasonic cycle in Isopropyl before I realised. Fortunately nothing happened to the balance or forks. 

As can be seen from my photographs, I now have a mark on my No. 2 jar saying 'No shellac'.

I note the costings. I have enough for the next 3 years.

 

The only thing i would say i was getting a residue left over from the lighter fluid, different brands might vary. Even with the elma wf pro I've had this happen in jewel holes, its usually when i fail with the inbetween drying phases. I sometimes buff up the odd jewel if it needs it or a quick brush of ipa and a blow dry. If your methods are working getting everything clean then there is no real need to change other to speed things up. I'm not convinced with the perc chemical yet, it has yet to tackle a really sticky hairspring. 

Edited February 5 by Neverenoughwatches

[Jon]

22 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

If the rinse is the same a isopropyl, can the balance with the shellac, and Pallet fork with the shellac, be used in the rinse without harm?  At present, whilst I put the  balance and pallet fork into the Lighter fluid I do not immerse them in the isopropyl wash.

IPA is pretty safe with any shellac. Methylated spirits (also known as denatured alcohol) on the other hand is a different story. Methylated spirits is about 90% ethanol and about 10% methanol and this will dissolve shellac really quite quickly. I also it to remove pallet stones and any shellac before setting new stones with new shellac. I also use it for removing old lume from watch hands

 

On 2/5/2024 at 2:51 PM, rossjackson01 said:

Perhaps you can answer this question please. Does using those products mean that you can leave the balance cock in situ, and leave the pallet fork in the basket for both processes?

I always leave a balance on the mainplate without the cap jewels and chatons in place and wash the movement through #111 L and R cleaner for five minutes and two rinses of #3 L and R rinse. You can't do that with non-shockproof balances though, as you have to take the cap off and the whole assembly is then in pieces. I never put a pallet fork through a cleaning machine, but that's my personal preference. I clean it by hand whilst everything is going through the cleaner, because I don't want to damage it, especially vintage pallet forks which could happen. I also clean caps and chatons by hand because I know they will come out really clean because I use new cleaner and rinse. If you put them through a cleaning machine they might not be as clean as you would like unless the fluids are new, as well as a possibility of mixing them up. Sometimes a cap jewel/chaton will be much bigger on the balance than the mainplate, but sometimes they are very similar size and sometimes they are identical. Washing them and putting them in separate pots marked top and bottom, a mistake to their position can't be made. I have put them through cleaning machines before with good results, but again, I prefer to hand clean them whilst everything else is going through the cleaning machine and it only takes minutes. Again, just a preference that I have. There are more than one way to skin cats...

IPA isn't as good as a dedicated rinse in my experience, otherwise all watchmakers would be saving a lot of money using it instead of a rinsing fluid. It's about £17 for 5 litres and L and R #3 rinse is about £55 for 3.8 litres. Some 4 jar watch cleaning machines will have IPA in the last jar, but that is after the the rinse.

Edited February 6 by Jon

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, Jon said:

IPA is pretty safe with any shellac. Methylated spirits (also known as denatured alcohol) on the other hand is a different story. Methylated spirits is about 90% ethanol and about 10% methanol and this will dissolve shellac really quite quickly. I also it to remove pallet stones and any shellac before setting new stones with new shellac. I also use it for removing old lume from watch hands

 

I always leave a balance on the mainplate without the cap jewels and chatons in place and wash the movement through #111 L and R cleaner for five minutes and two rinses of #3 L and R rinse. You can't do that with non-shockproof balances though, as you have to take the cap off and the whole assembly is then in pieces. I never put a pallet fork through a cleaning machine, but that's my personal preference. I clean it by hand whilst everything is going through the cleaner, because I don't want to damage it, especially vintage pallet forks which could happen. I also clean caps and chatons by hand because I know they will come out really clean because I use new cleaner and rinse. If you put them through a cleaning machine they might not be as clean as you would like unless the fluids are new, as well as a possibility of mixing them up. Sometimes a cap jewel/chaton will be much bigger on the balance than the mainplate, but sometimes they are very similar size and sometimes they are identical. Washing them and putting them in separate pots marked top and bottom, a mistake to their position can't be made. I have put them through cleaning machines before with good results, but again, I prefer to hand clean them whilst everything else is going through the cleaning machine and it only takes minutes. Again, just a preference that I have. There are more than one way to skin cats...

IPA isn't as good as a dedicated rinse in my experience, otherwise all watchmakers would be saving a lot of money using it instead of a rinsing fluid. It's about £17 for 5 litres and L and R #3 rinse is about £55 for 3.8 litres. Some 4 jar watch cleaning machines will have IPA in the last jar, but that is after the the rinse.

Quick question Jon if i may as you've mentioned a proprietary rinse. Does it evaporate quickly in the same way as ipa does ?

[valleyguy]

I started off the same as ross using lighter fluid and isopropanol until i watched Alex Hamiltons youtube video, he used elma red 1:9 for cleaning, 1st rinse in destilled water then 2nd rinse in ispropanol, thought i'd give it a try the results on the finished parts i could never have achieved if i'd washed the parts over and and over again in lighter fluid/isopropanol, i should have used the elma  from the start, for the balance/pallet fork i use hexane.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/elma-jewellery-19-concentrate

When my bottle of elma red's nearly finished i will the give the elma wf pro and suprol rinse a try that endeavors linked to if i can use it to clean the pallet fork and balance, then i won't need to use  hexane as when i use it i  always use a respirator to be on the safe side.

Edited February 6 by valleyguy

[rehajm]

5 hours ago, Jon said:

I always leave a balance on the mainplate without the cap jewels and chatons in place and wash the movement through #111 L and R cleaner for five minutes and two rinses of #3 L and R rinse. You can't do that with non-shockproof balances though, as you have to take the cap off and the whole assembly is then in pieces. I never put a pallet fork through a cleaning machine, but that's my personal preference.

Exactly my process, too. With non shock I disassemble and use hairspring dip and a brush for the wheel/spring and...lighter fluid for the jeweled plate jewel cock-haha

[Jon]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Quick question Jon if i may as you've mentioned a proprietary rinse. Does it evaporate quickly in the same way as ipa does ?

I find IPA and rinse are pretty similar with their evaporation rate.

I keep a small jar of IPA on my workbench to dip my tweezers in when they get a bit sticky from lubricants on movements I'm disassembling then push the tweezers into pithwood.