LL Bean Hamilton quartz watch ETA 963.116 won't run

[signcarver]

I have an LL Bean Hamilton quartz watch ETA 963.116 (a.k.a 980.033) that i have been working on.

The watch won't run.

I changed the battery, completely disassembled, cleaned and reassembled the watch.

I also installed a new pc board because the original pc board failed the Horotec Pulse tester. However, the watch still fails the Horotec Pulse tester, which means the new pc board is also bad?!?

Hand setting, rapid date advance, and date turnover work properly.

The watch also fails on the Horotec Turbo tester. That is, the hands won't move. I was careful upon reassembly to zoom in with my microscope and insure all train wheel pivots were properly seated. Also, gently nudging the train of wheels worked. So i'm puzzled why the Horotec Turbo tester won't "spin" the wheels.

Any suggestions on what i might try next?

Thank you!!!

[watchweasol]

Hi there is a possibility that the tester has gone awol, test the tester on a known working watch to verify that it’s ok. Once that’s proven we can move on.post some pictures o& the movement as it helps our cause, thanks.

Hi no manual for 963-116 but the attached may be of some use

938_Eta 963.114, 963.124.pdf

[signcarver]

@watchweasol I confirmed the tester is good on another watch - Thanks. I couldn't find a manual either, but thanks for the substitute. I did find a YouTube video of the disassembly here but it goes pretty fast. I did take detailed pictures at each step of the disassembly. I'll post a few below. 

I wondered if, perhaps, the "magnetized drive wheel" was somehow defective, if that would cause the problem. I did not put it through the cleaner and it is still magnetized.

 

Edited January 5 by signcarver
removed unimportant picture

[JohnR725]

one of the unfortunate problems working on electric watches is you do or should have test equipment. like for instance can you measure the coil resistance? The coil is attached the circuit board on this particular watch of the coil is bad like it's been scratched then everything doesn't work. Also be nice to measure the current consumption to see if you're having a problem. Yes the electrical test really are nice for diagnostic purposes.

9 hours ago, signcarver said:

I wondered if, perhaps, the "magnetized drive wheel" was somehow defective, if that would cause the problem. I did not put it through the cleaner and it is still magnetized.

that is usually not a problem. You have to try really really really hard to remove the magnetic properties from that it can be done but not casually.

One of the things you might do is disassemble watch and only put the rotor in and see if that will turn at all. Lubrication is also critical of the quartz watches too much lubrication or the wrong lubrication of the other words too heavy it will have an issue.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, signcarver said:

wondered if, perhaps, the "magnetized drive wheel" was somehow defective, if that would cause the problem. I did not put it through the cleaner and it is still magnetized.

Unlikely the rotor at this stage, the circuit board will pulse just on its own as long as it has a power supply. It doesn't need the coil attached, as long as the quartz crystal, circuit and cmos are functioning correctly, power supplied at the terminals and pulse tester works you should hear a pulse signal from the tester.

[watchweasol]

Hi. By using an external power supply and a meter it is possible to test the circuit board on its own and also the coil on its own. The coil if good should cause full scale deflection.  And the circuit board should pulse in one second intervals.  It’s not easy without the proper tools.  I have two test units for quartz modules, one a fairly simple one for pulse monitoring and battery testing and a more complex one for current test as well. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

hear a pulse signal from the tester

that's an interesting thought I wonder how that works? I was under the impression that those testers pick up the magnetic field produced by the functional coil. No coil no magnetic field. But if you have test equipment the right test equipment you can place it on the output to the coil to verify that the circuit is trying to drive the coil whether it's there or not.

 

Edited January 6 by JohnR725

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

that's an interesting thought I wonder how that works? I was under the impression that those testers pick up the magnetic field produced by the functional coil. No coil no magnetic field. But if you have test equipment the right test equipment you can place it on the output to the coil to verify that the circuit is trying to drive the coil whether it's there or not.

 

I'm not sure how it works John, i have one of those cheap quartz 4 in 1 testers . It will pick up a signal from just the circuit board itself when power is supplied and even the quartz cylinder. 

[watchweasol]

Hi  The training document attached below is for both mechanical and quartz watches and will explain the theory and functionality of the quartz watch.  a read through it will give you a better insight as to how it all hangs together.   It is unlikley to be the rotor its self as this is composed of alternate permanent magnets the same most electric motors of this type. and respond to the frequency of the pulse in this case one per second from a base of 32,768Hz divided down by the circuit block to acheive the one second pulse required by the step motor. As you read the document it will become clearer.

witschi_training_course.pdf

[Neverenoughwatches]

33 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

that's an interesting thought I wonder how that works? I was under the impression that those testers pick up the magnetic field produced by the functional coil. No coil no magnetic field. But if you have test equipment the right test equipment you can place it on the output to the coil to verify that the circuit is trying to drive the coil whether it's there or not.

 

Its a while since ive used it, but as i remember the device actually has some kind of microphone. 

[watchweasol]

Hi  NEW   I had one of those things and it cracked up the wiring was crap and fell to bits. All it seemed to be was an amplifier and speaker that responded to the pulse with a led for show, line release was a small transformer when activated via a switch moved the watch hands round.  that was the only bit i salvaged and fitted to another case the rest went in the bin.  The rule is if it stops working bin it  for £30 not worth trying to repair it

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  NEW   I had one of those things and it cracked up the wiring was crap and fell to bits. All it seemed to be was an amplifier and speaker that responded to the pulse with a led for show, line release was a small transformer when activated via a switch moved the watch hands round.  that was the only bit i salvaged and fitted to another case the rest went in the bin.  The rule is if it stops working bin it  for £30 not worth trying to repair it

 

Hi WW i paid about £30.  Yes i assumed it had a microphone as the circuit board had to be in just the right place on the tester. If the circuit board was moved away the audible signal would fade in and out. I have my mother inlaws stethoscope thinking it might pick up the same sound.

[watchweasol]

Hi NEW. These things are made in India by Rohan products and by looking at the cut board it was cobbled from somthing else. A lot of redundant tracks and holes for components. When I contacted Rohan there was a deathly silence I now use two analysers by Israel Angeles in the Philippines they are custom built to order, not cheap but good tools  can be seen on his web site pinoy clockmaker,  they use leds to indicate the state of the watch.

Hi New.  A better site is le arsi watch repair tools you will get a better idea of what I am talking. About.   

[signcarver]

Let's say the circuit board is bad (coil, whatever). Should the Horotec Pulse tester still move the hands, or does it require some level of functionality from the circuit board?

@JohnR725 @Neverenoughwatches @watchweasol Thank you for responding and the great info. Lots to go through here. I have saved the witschi training course document in my archives.

I looked into replacing the movement but a complete movement is expensive and i don't think it's worth it, since it's my watch. I only paid $13.00 plus shipping for the new circuit board so i took a chance on that even though it didn't work. 

[HectorLooi]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Its a while since ive used it, but as i remember the device actually has some kind of microphone. 

Quartz testers do not use microphones. John is correct, it picks up magnetic fields with a pickup coil. If you take a magnet and waved it over the sensor, the unit will beep.

21 minutes ago, signcarver said:

Let's say the circuit board is bad (coil, whatever). Should the Horotec Pulse tester still move the hands, or does it require some level of functionality from the circuit board?

The line release tool uses a fluctuating magnetic field to turn the rotor of the movement. It does not require the pcb to be functional or even present in the movement during testing. Most of the cheap 4 in 1 tester use a magnet fixed to a small dc motor to create the rotating magnetic field. A cheap blue box demagnetizer can also be used as a line release tool, however, I do not recommend it as it could weaken the magnet in the rotor.

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Quartz testers do not use microphones. John is correct, it picks up magnetic fields with a pickup coil. If you take a magnet and waved it over the sensor, the unit will beep.

It was more of an assumption Hector , the audible signal volume varies depending on how close the bloc is to what i thought was a receiver. But the circuit bloc doesn't contain a magnet ? If i could figure out how to post a video i would provide a demonstration. 

[HectorLooi]

If the circuit bloc has the coil attached to it, the electrical impulse coursing through the coil will generate a magnetic field, and that is what the sensor picks up 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

If the circuit bloc has the coil attached to it, the electrical impulse coursing through the coil will generate a magnetic field, and that is what the sensor picks up 

No i mean testing just the bloc by itself. When i first got into the hobby i aquired around 500 quartz movements and spent weeks pulling them apart figuring out how they worked. It was fantastic for developing manipulation of tweezers and drivers. Sorting through working and non working components i realised that the coil wasn't necessary for testing the cmos with the tester i had. It also seems to sort through non functioning crystals , i cant honestly say how accurate that might be but it does appear to pick out ones that do and dont work.

52 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

No i mean testing just the bloc by itself. When i first got into the hobby i aquired around 500 quartz movements and spent weeks pulling them apart figuring out how they worked. It was fantastic for developing manipulation of tweezers and drivers. Sorting through working and non working components i realised that the coil wasn't necessary for testing the cmos with the tester i had. It also seems to sort through non functioning crystals , i cant honestly say how accurate that might be but it does appear to pick out ones that do and dont work.

To fully explain the process i used, a complete movement with power supplied would be tested. If working the tester would indicate this with a one second interval audible bleep, this then verified visually with a rotating rotor and moving train. Occasionally the train would need to be freed up, sometimes if the train did still not move, a resistance test on the coil would show a defective coil or often see visual damage to it. The bloc still provided a pulse when tested separately.  When no pulse was detected, coil and train would then be checked in the same manner sometimes working sometimes not,depending if there was a multiple issue. Testing a crystal was also thrown into that mix, but through trial and error testing the bloc, the bloc's circuit traces, the coil , the train and the crystal either separately or combined i managed to find seperate issues or no issues with each component . The tester is only a cheap device so only indicates the symptoms of a working or non working components not a diagnosis.  But after sorting through hundreds of each one the process seemed reasonably full proof .

Edited January 6 by Neverenoughwatches

[watchweasol]

For testing the crystal ocoscillator Bergeron produced a tool which was in effect a crystal filled inside a rod either the two leads extended to enable you to piggy back the fitted crystal with a known working one which should in theory start the watch if it was the crystal that was at fault, the same can be achieved by checking the cmos output to the coil. The coil should either be full scale deflection on a meter for good. No needle movement the coil is open circuit, ot a resistance value indicating a fault within the coil.

[JohnR725]

a better way to do testing would be to follow the recommendations in the tech sheet. Then for instance the Swiss and others make test equipment like there is an example at the link down below.

then the second link is yes it's expensive but not as expensive as witschi would be you by what they have it's going to be very very expensive. So this is relatively inexpensive compared the witschi but still expensive if you only have one watch. So you can see the tool and at the very bottom you can download the manual which explains what all the tests are.

 

http://onatelier.co.uk/new-equipment-workshop-quartz-testing

https://www.esslinger.com/horotec-flash-tester-quartz-watch-tester/

 

 

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

For testing the crystal ocoscillator Bergeron produced a tool which was in effect a crystal filled inside a rod either the two leads extended to enable you to piggy back the fitted crystal with a known working one which should in theory start the watch if it was the crystal that was at fault, the same can be achieved by checking the cmos output to the coil. The coil should either be full scale deflection on a meter for good. No needle movement the coil is open circuit, ot a resistance value indicating a fault within the coil.

I did read somewhere that its not common for the quartz to become defective. I dont know how the tester i have actually tests crystals or if at all. i should  really post a picture maybe someone can explain it. I have deliberately damaged them to see if there is a difference between working and non working, which there is. The 2 legs of the cylinder fit into 2 ports, most often that generates the same one second pulse, which doesn't make sense as the vibration frequency of crystals is 32 something thousand. Directly connecting the ports with wire does nothing , neither does a hammer battered cylinder, so there is something in the cylinder that is generating a signal. So i broke open a few cylinders only to find slivers of quartz crystal attached to a fork of steel, nothing interesting at all inside. My guess is the device has its own built in cmos and circuit to divide up the frequency provided by crystal into one second interval pulses. Not particularly expensive or clever equipment when you could make up your own from any cheap working movement bloc.

Edited January 6 by Neverenoughwatches

[watchweasol]

Hi NEW. The quartz crystal has a natural frequency of 32,768 Hz when a voltage is applied to it the cmos under the black block does the clever duff of sub dividing to get the one pulse per second which is then applied to the coil the rotor then steps one division  ie one second. If a quartz breaks down and does not oscillate, that’s when the piggy back tool takes over if applied to the same contacts as the original,  it then substitutes the 32 768 Hz oscillations and the cmos works with the substitute crystal. Used primarily to eliminate a duff crystal.

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi NEW. The quartz crystal has a natural frequency of 32,768 Hz when a voltage is applied to it the cmos under the black block does the clever duff of sub dividing to get the one pulse per second which is then applied to the coil the rotor then steps one division  ie one second. If a quartz breaks down and does not oscillate, that’s when the piggy back tool takes over if applied to the same contacts as the original,  it then substitutes the 32 768 Hz oscillations and the cmos works with the substitute crystal. Used primarily to eliminate a duff crystal.

Thanks WW. Yes i understand the principle of how the piggy backing worked , i read about that ages ago and  I'm certain we've discussed it before.  I'm thinking the tester i have has something like this inside , the thought came to me halfway through my last post just as it seemed like i was asking a question. I imagine its something quite easy to make that anyone can put together.  Basically just a bloc with the quartz left out with the ability to easily drop one into the circuit. I think the crystals might be different from movement to movement some have codes on them so i wonder how they might differ, maybe just in size ? I get thats its a cheap device but if it can pick up the signal of the pulses generated by a cmos and also has the ability to swap out crystals to compare working and non working. Nothing diagnostic just yes or no that it works.

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I think the crystals might be different from movement to movement some have codes on them so i wonder how they might differ, maybe just in size

because the circuitry is all more or less identical the crystals are basically almost all identical. Other than perhaps packaging. Except when we get to newer watches the quartz crystal is not going to be oscillating at the exact frequency we perceive it's going to be adjusted off a little bit I believe it's running fast. Because when you get a much newer quartz watches there's no trimmer capacitor and they use a logic regulation circuit. Simplistically they miss place a little bit of the frequency. Unfortunately that means you cannot adjust the trimmer frequency of the watch at all at one time you could reprogram that if you have the right witschi machine and if you knew which program the watch had. Notice the word if in other words the circuit didn't say which program they were using and that was basically just short-lived. The reality look quartz watch run so close to frequency it doesn't really need much regulation normally.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

24 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

because the circuitry is all more or less identical the crystals are basically almost all identical. Other than perhaps packaging. Except when we get to newer watches the quartz crystal is not going to be oscillating at the exact frequency we perceive it's going to be adjusted off a little bit I believe it's running fast. Because when you get a much newer quartz watches there's no trimmer capacitor and they use a logic regulation circuit. Simplistically they miss place a little bit of the frequency. Unfortunately that means you cannot adjust the trimmer frequency of the watch at all at one time you could reprogram that if you have the right witschi machine and if you knew which program the watch had. Notice the word if in other words the circuit didn't say which program they were using and that was basically just short-lived. The reality look quartz watch run so close to frequency it doesn't really need much regulation normally.

 

Thanks John thats good to know.