Can't wrap my finger around it...

[MCBwatchrepair]

The balance seems fine, the jewels all seem to be in order but I get a weak to no movement from the balance wheel. Here are a few pics, any input would be greatly appreciated 

[RichardHarris123]

Give it a blow with a puffer and see if it runs freely.  If not remove the pallet, reinstall the balance and give it a blow again.  It should oscillate from about 30s.

[MCBwatchrepair]

only get rotation per blow even with pallet out 

[RichardHarris123]

Loosen the balance cock screw and try again.  Could be lack of end shake or a broken pivot. 

[MCBwatchrepair]

end shake. thank you 

 

[RichardHarris123]

How are you going to correct it? 

[MCBwatchrepair]

the balance stem seems to be little long. gonna file it, tell there is less friction 

[RichardHarris123]

Don't do that, ideally the plate jewel needs moving but you will need a  jewelling tool.  If you don't have one, you could shim the balance cock for now. 

[nevenbekriev]

No jewel moving in this kind of watches and jewels, no jeweling tool needed here.

First of all, the endshake must be checked and if no endshake but the balance is almost free. then the balance cock can be lifted alittle. To do so, the balance must be taken off the cock, the cock in place and the screw tightened. Then, lift alittle the cock wit proper tool in ordet ro slightly deform it and thus increase the distance between jewels. Then, put the balance for test (hairspring attaching is not needed at this point) and check the free play, if to much, correct by pressing the cock down (balance out!)

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Don't do that, ideally the plate jewel needs moving but you will need a  jewelling tool.  If you don't have one, you could shim the balance cock for now. 

Haha now i know Rich.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, MCBwatchrepair said:

the balance stem seems to be little long. gonna file it

That's it interesting procedure would you like to elaborate?

8 hours ago, MCBwatchrepair said:

The balance seems fine, the jewels all seem to be in order but I get a weak to no movement from the balance wheel. Here are a few pics, any input would be greatly appreciated 

Background history would be nice are you servicing the watch did it come in like this? Could we have a name of the watch and a picture of the entire movement.

 

[Kalanag]

Might be of some interest: Herre is how a chronometer rated Swiss wristwatch of mine got the endshake reduced by the manufacturer. Two punch marks and some filing around the cock screw. Same can be done the other way round to increase the endshake.

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Kalanag

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Kalanag said:

Might be of some interest: Herre is how a chronometer rated Swiss wristwatch of mine got the endshake reduced by the manufacturer. Two punch marks and some filing around the cock screw. Same can be done the other way round to increase the endshake.

 

[rossjackson01]

Had the same problem on my first Sekonda. Every time I tightened the balance cock screw, the balance stopped.  Watched Mark's course video on the same problem. Made two scratches with a screwdriver which increased the end shake. Did the job. I was impressed with me. Heehee!  Been wearing the watch daily for nearly a year now. Loses 12 seconds every week. Can't fault it.

Hope you get it sorted

[Nucejoe]

21 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

No jewel moving in this kind of watches and jewels, no jeweling tool needed here.

First of all, the endshake must be checked and if no endshake but the balance is almost free. then the balance cock can be lifted alittle. To do so, the balance must be taken off the cock, the cock in place and the screw tightened. Then, lift alittle the cock wit proper tool in ordet ro slightly deform it and thus increase the distance between jewels. Then, put the balance for test (hairspring attaching is not needed at this point) and check the free play, if to much, correct by pressing the cock down (balance out!)

 This approach is a dangerous hit or miss, you have no control over the amount of adjusting. Its blindly increasing and decreasing until you get tired and call a end shake acceptible, there is also high risk of breaking the cock screw plus that all parts need to be removed before you attempt or else you be putting all parts in harms way.

furthurmore in case that jewels are embeded , jewels would end up not parrallel. 

Rgds

 

[MCBwatchrepair]

So what if you have to much play horizontal play from the balance wheel and you cant swap out jewels? Torquing the cock sounds like a favorable play...

 

[JohnR725]

Just now, MCBwatchrepair said:

So what if you have to much play horizontal play from the balance wheel and you cant swap out jewels? Torquing the cock sounds like a favorable play...

Why are you having this problem? We still need the background story are you servicing the watch stood you swap balance wheels to do change the balance staff what caused this problem to manifest itself which we need to understand if word to help you to fix the problem

[MCBwatchrepair]

15 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

That's it interesting procedure would you like to elaborate?

Background history would be nice are you servicing the watch did it come in like this? Could we have a name of the watch and a picture of the entire movement.

 

Elgin grade 270 16s cant send more photos at the moment tbc

2 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Why are you having this problem? We still need the background story are you servicing the watch stood you swap balance wheels to do change the balance staff what caused this problem to manifest itself which we need to understand if word to help you to fix the problem

I'm just working on something, relax. thought I would ask, don't need to gate keep 

[JohnR725]

16 minutes ago, MCBwatchrepair said:

thought I would ask, don't need to gate keep 

I don't understand what that means?

[nevenbekriev]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 This approach is a dangerous hit or miss, you have no control over the amount of adjusting. Its blindly increasing and decreasing until you get tired and call a end shake acceptible, there is also high risk of breaking the cock screw plus that all parts need to be removed before you attempt or else you be putting all parts in harms way.

furthurmore in case that jewels are embeded , jewels would end up not parrallel. 

Rgds

 

The bending I talk about is no more than 0.1mm , in all cases no visible effect, only fine regulation of the end shake. How many antique pocket watch balance staffs have You turned and replaced? I mean, You can trust me when I say something like this, as I have done many of them.

[Nucejoe]

26 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

The bending I talk about is no more than 0.1mm , in all cases no visible effect, only fine regulation of the end shake. How many antique pocket watch balance staffs have You turned and replaced? I mean, You can trust me when I say something like this, as I have done many of them.

 Bending is deforming the balance cock, so even if one manages an acceptable adjustment , he creates a job for the next repairman to find and fix the fault.

The next worst aproach is gouging, at least shimming doesn't destroy a part. Mark makes sure to mention gouging is frowned upon when he shows jouging.

All of the above are bodge job.

There is no need to destroy a watch when we  repaire/ restore it.

As the OP doesn't have a jeweling tool, lets show him to shim.

I should have shown  how to adjust  by shimming with .01mm accuracy long time ago. I know,  I am terrible when it comes to  keeping my promises, will do this one soon, if you dont. 

Then the questions John asked has remained unanswered.

Rgds

 

 

[nevenbekriev]

23 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 Bending is deforming the balance cock, so even if one manages an acceptable adjustment , he creates a job for the next repairman to find and fix the fault.

The next worst aproach is gouging, at least shimming doesn't destroy a part. Mark makes sure to mention gouging is frowned upon when he shows jouging.

 

Of course, everyone has the right of His own opinion.

The way I use doesn't destroy anything. It is used in modern watch manyfacturing, but computer-controlled. You at least can try it in order to understand if it is easy or for example impossible for You to reach result needed.

Gouging I don't use or recommend, as it really destroys the apiarence of the plate or cock. But, it is present in swiss books and schools.

[JohnR725]

On 11/30/2023 at 10:04 AM, MCBwatchrepair said:

The balance seems fine, the jewels all seem to be in order but I get a weak to no movement from the balance wheel. Here are a few pics, any input would be greatly appreciated 

When you look at this problem it could be a number of issues like end shake butt end shake doesn't magically change by itself pivots don't magically grow longer. They can grow to being shorter typically broken off.  But is there anything else that would cause the exact symptoms that you have that I quoted above? For instance your pictures could use a little work but still they tell us this is a really nice pretty watch and hairspring is it where it's supposed to be? For instance you look at the image below and go find it up above it looks like the regulator pins are just barely touching the top of the hairspring. The problem with this is if the hairspring is down too low it rubs on the balance arms and that will simulate exactly the problem you're having.

So it's very important that the hairspring be absolutely parallel and that every single time you look at a watch you look to make sure it's parallel. Although all of us will agree that seeing of that can be a bit of a challenge. No matter what if that hairspring is touching the balance arms you will have running issues.

 

13 hours ago, Kalanag said:

Might be of some interest: Herre is how a chronometer rated Swiss wristwatch of mine got the endshake reduced by the manufacturer. Two punch marks and some filing around the cock screw. Same can be done the other way round to increase the endshake.

By the way how do you know that that was actually done by the manufacturer? Usually when people are manufacturing watches they will adjust the balance staff to fit their watch. This is usually done after the fact by people who don't have the tools to adjust the balance staff pivots to the proper length. Now there are minor exceptions to things like this some manufacturers will put it in a piece of usually metal across the entire bottom of the bridge. To raise the bridge up parallel and not to put at angle very common on Russian watches where manufacturing tolerances need to be worked on and Thin sheets of metal solve that problem.

2 hours ago, MCBwatchrepair said:

So what if you have to much play horizontal play from the balance wheel and you cant swap out jewels? Torquing the cock sounds like a favorable play...

I thought we didn't have too much horizontal plane now we have too much what happened?

6 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Bending is deforming the balance cock, so even if one manages an acceptable adjustment , he creates a job for the next repairman to find and fix the fault.

The next worst aproach is gouging, at least shimming doesn't destroy a part. Mark makes sure to mention gouging is frowned upon when he shows jouging.

All of the above are bodge job.

There is no need to destroy a watch when we  repaire/ restore it.

As the OP doesn't have a jeweling tool, lets show him to shim.

I should have shown  how to adjust  by shimming with .01mm accuracy long time ago. I know,  I am terrible when it comes to  keeping my promises, will do this one soon, if you dont. 

Then the questions John asked has remained unanswered.

Rgds

Oh what about if you could purchase a tool that came from a Swiss company and it came in a yellow box would it make bending the balance bridge acceptable?

24 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

As the OP doesn't have a jeweling tool, lets show him to shim.

One of the problems for problem solving is a number of items we need to have to understand how to solve the problem for instance jeweling tool helpful for?

3 hours ago, MCBwatchrepair said:

Elgin grade 270 16s

As I could tell from the pictures this is a pretty watch. But what does that mean well is a link below this is a very fine railroad grade 21 jewel watch everything should function perfectly At least it did when it left the factory who knows what's happened to it since then

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/guide/company/elgin/grade/270

Now back to the jewels jeweling tool would it be of any use not really. Notice all those little screws holding the jewels in. Usually things with end stone's people removed for cleaning then of course you have to be carefully make sure you get them back down where there supposed to be and that they're still parallel plus you will be careful not the strip the little screws.

But basically those tools are where they are they can be moved downwards a little bit not recommended though you can actually reduce the thickness of the shoulders of the hole jewel but that's not really what you want to be doing in fact that would violate one of your rules

32 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

There is no need to destroy a watch when we  repaire/ restore it.

If you were to reduce the thickness too much you wouldn't build a get the in the stone on properly. Typically lie time you're adjusting the whole jewels are if you're fitting a new jewel

Here's a website for identifying watch parts for Elgin watches

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

One of the problems when you look at vintage parts especially Elgin where there information tends below more complete than other companies they will tell you considerable variation in a lot of the parts. This is where mixing and matching off other watches becomes an issue

 

 

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 This approach is a dangerous hit or miss, you have no control over the amount of adjusting. Its blindly increasing and decreasing until you get tired and call a end shake acceptible, there is also high risk of breaking the cock screw plus that all parts need to be removed before you attempt or else you be putting all parts in harms way.

furthurmore in case that jewels are embeded , jewels would end up not parrallel. 

Rgds

 

Bending the cock, the top and bottom jewels would not be in perfect alignment (thats if they were to begin with ) how much affect would this have ? Would it cause the pivots to bind on the bearings ?  ( a check for sideshake afterwards should determine that ) If anything i would consider a shim lifting all of the cock a better easy alternative. Seems obvious to state but the cock may have been previously accidentally bent downwards and need returning to original position. 

3 hours ago, MCBwatchrepair said:

Elgin grade 270 16s cant send more photos at the moment tbc

I'm just working on something, relax. thought I would ask, don't need to gate keep 

John does not gate keep, quite the opposite in fact. To full help someone to diagnose a fault, the more information provided the more accurate is the advice.

[JohnR725]

12 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

John does not gate keep, quite the opposite in fact. To full help someone to diagnose a fault, the more information provided the more accurate is the advice.

Was thinking maybe I should Google this to figure out what exactly I have been accused of

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/gatekeeping

Interesting definition. But it brings up a problem of the original posting person is doing exactly that. His controlling the information we have or have not to solve the problem.

Watch repair involves a lot of detective work in order to do the detective work we require eyes at the scene of the crime and we need a crime report.

If we didn't have a picture of a watch in other words we didn't have a scene of a crime and a hypothetical question was asked then we could give hypothetical answers but we would still need a watch or description of a watch because the answers will vary depending upon the watch. For instance some watches you could move the jewels not typically an American pocket watch.

16 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Bending the cock, the top and bottom jewels would not be in perfect alignment (thats if they were to begin with ) how much affect would this have ? Would it cause the pivots to bind on the bearings ?  ( a check for sideshake afterwards should determine that ) If anything i would consider a shim lifting all of the cock a better easy alternative. Seems obvious to state but the cock may have been previously accidentally bent downwards and need returning to original position. 

As a reminder the balance jewels are different than plate jewels they will tolerate greater out of alignment. Then yes before fixing a problem figuring out what the problem is like has the bridge been bent.

Usually on American pocket watches shimming is just a thin strip of paper either in the front or the back of the screw to allow you to tip the balance bridge. Which angles the bridge exactly the same as bending would do or raising marks on the plate.