I'm not seeing something obvious

[Waggy]

Just finished a Rotary manual and all seems well, getting great amplitude (>290) and beat error (0.1 ms) and rate (<3s/d) and watch seemed to be working well, but then I set the time and came back to it 10 mins later and the seconds hand is going around as it should, but the minute and hour hand aren't moving, they are still at the time I set them. They move when I use the keyless works to set the time and don't feel too much or not enough friction. Also the hands travel well and don't seem to be fowling each other. As the seconds hand is moving as it should so the hour and minute hands can't be touching the crystal (because the seconds hand is closer to the crystal and not touching it). As the train of wheels is obviously turning (as the watch is ticking) I assume it is something to do with the cannon pinion?

Any other options I am missing?

Up side is I may get to try out my new toy sooner than I anticipated, literally arrived a few hours ago in the post.

[RichardHarris123]

Sounds like the cannon pinion is loose. 

[mikepilk]

Cannon pinion. I put a broach in to stop it crushing, and use the pointy thing (used to centre the holes) in the staking set. Give it a VERY light tap.

Oh you have a new toy. They're surprisingly cheap for a Begeon tool on Cousins, £22. Surely they've missed a "0" off the end?

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by mikepilk

[Nucejoe]

 Canthus added the stopping screw to this WRT special tool. 

 

 

[rossjackson01]

Waggy quote" I assume it is something to do with the cannon pinion?"

Exactly the same problem. I realised when I replayed Mark's course material Level 3: Fault Finding  c3.1.0 The Initial Inspection  c3.1.1 Check The Motion Work. Described the exact symptom. Same as you. 

Back to a complete rebuild. Disassembly, clean and off I go to apply a fix to the canon pinion. So pleased I've got the right tool on my DIY additions in my staking set.

Good this hobby innit?

Edited November 11, 2023 by rossjackson01

[mikepilk]

For any basic fixes like this, I can highly recommend Fried's "The Watch Repairer's Manual"  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Watch-Repairers-Manual-Henry-Fried
(you can usually find them cheaper on ebay).

It's the only book I regularly use as a reference.

[rehajm]

I find the dent tools to be too much stress and after having overdone and had to open a couple pinions back up I tried that spikey broad-arrow stake that I keep snagging my hand on. A couple little taps on the bottom of the pinion gives four little notches in the pipe for the end of the pinion to grip the base of the center wheel near the plate…

…I don’t know when each technique is more appropriate but after 2-3 with the spike I haven’t had to adjust yet…

Edited November 11, 2023 by rehajm

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Waggy said:

Rotary manual

No model number so I will assume that everyone got the right style of cannon pinion.

The reason I bring this up is the symptoms are also a classic problem of another type of center wheel assembly that looks like this

.

Usually when you're assembling a watch you like to try things out as you go rather than an all or nothing approach. So in other words when you put the center wheel assembly like the above image or the canon pinion on you can attempt to turn it with the keyless and see how it feels do you think it feels like it has enough friction?

Most the time you should be able to tell that you're going to have an issue at this stage. It's also good when evaluating the watch before cleaning to see how it feels as to whether you think it's going to work or not. Although typically when the watches in the case especially with the water resistant crown the gasket on the case tube can interfere with how things feel it might feel like you have enough friction there but in real life you don't which is why it's best always check the watch out of the case.

 

 

[rossjackson01]

rehajm, Mikepilk. 

Making one as we post. The down stake is made. Making the bottom post. 

I have the Fried book as a Christmas present from my bride. She had put it away to wrap. No amount of pleading will allow vision before Christmas.

 

Update.

Just made the stump. Top is flat. I will do the groove for the canon pinion tomorrow. Hopefully it will look like Fig. 3. Not sure if I will use a stake like suggested by rehajm, I think I will, or the 'pin point' as suggested by the same fig. 3.

[Waggy]

Thanks for the help, greatly appreciated, this was one of those strange movements where there were what looked like 2 cannon pinions, one on the center wheel where you would expect to see it and another more stubby one on the third wheel. I have done one of these in the past and remember that the friction came from the stubby third wheel cannon pinion and not the 'fake' one on the center wheel. I have used my new toy and applied the dent (?) to the stubby wheel and I felt the standard 'clunk' as it slipped into place on the third wheel then I reattached the minute and hour wheels and placed a hand directly on the 'fake cannon pinion' on the center wheel to see if it would move - after a cup of coffee I came back to find that the minute hand had indeed turned.  Now to put it all back together properly.

PS

I know they aren't  really a fake and real cannon pinion, but I'm not sure what they are supposed to be called, I am sure someone will enlighten me

[rossjackson01]

9 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Not sure if I will use a stake like suggested by rehajm, I think I will, or the 'pin point' as suggested by the same fig. 3.

Apologies to rehajm. His photo is indeed a pin point. For some reason I thought is was a standard screw driver head. Trick of my eyes on the view. 'Should have gone to specsavers' (Brtish tv advert). 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, Waggy said:

Thanks for the help, greatly appreciated, this was one of those strange movements where there were what looked like 2 cannon pinions, one on the center wheel where you would expect to see it and another more stubby one on the third wheel. I have done one of these in the past and remember that the friction came from the stubby third wheel cannon pinion and not the 'fake' one on the center wheel. I have used my new toy and applied the dent (?) to the stubby wheel and I felt the standard 'clunk' as it slipped into place on the third wheel then I reattached the minute and hour wheels and placed a hand directly on the 'fake cannon pinion' on the center wheel to see if it would move - after a cup of coffee I came back to find that the minute hand had indeed turned.  Now to put it all back together properly.

PS

I know they aren't  really a fake and real cannon pinion, but I'm not sure what they are supposed to be called, I am sure someone will enlighten me

Offset cannon pinion ?  but of course i have the removal tool .

Edited November 12, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[rossjackson01]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Offset cannon pinion ?  but of course i have the removal tool .

For the offset? Is it different to the normal Presto tool? Genuine enquiry.

Edited November 12, 2023 by rossjackson01

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

For the offset? Is it different to the normal Presto tool?

 

[rossjackson01]

Flaming heck! How does that work?

Two prongs into and under the cogs. But surely the angle will be massive from the round thingy?

Edited November 12, 2023 by rossjackson01

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Flaming heck! How does that work?

Two prongs into and under the cogs. But surely the angle will be massive?

I'm not entirely sure that waggy's is an offset cp, hence the question mark. This tool cant be used inside the movement, its used to seperate the offset cp and the 3rd wheel once removed. What waggy has looks like it has to be seperated first. The offset cp is fitting inside the train and not on thd dial side like waggy's but mayby some version of an offset cp.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Waggy]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What waggy has looks like it has to be seperated first.

correct you have to remove the fake cannon pinion in order to remove the 3rd wheel from the base plate, I couldn't get my cannon pinion removal tool in there to get it off so used some beefy tweesers, got my inspiration from the way Karl uses it on Chronoglide

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

of course i have the removal tool

Looks like you could also remove a tooth with those things! 

 

[HectorLooi]

20 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Looks like you could also remove a tooth with those things!

No way. Not unless your tooth is already wiggling.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

correct you have to remove the fake cannon pinion in order to remove the 3rd wheel from the base plate, I couldn't get my cannon pinion removal tool in there to get it off so used some beefy tweesers, got my inspiration from the way Karl uses it on Chronoglide

Looks like you could also remove a tooth with those things! 

 

It bothers me the way he clicks the cp off with these, they look more like hairspring tweezers

[rehajm]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It bothers me the way he clicks the cp off with these, they look more like hairspring tweezers

I’m fairly certain the ones Kalle uses are hairspring tweezers…

[mikepilk]

I've always used plain tweezers with no problems 

[Waggy]

9 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I've always used plain tweezers with no problems 

I almost used my standard tweezers (and have in the past), but due to the tight quarters and the awkward angle I would have had to approach from I was worried I would be introducing a slight ark as I pulled up creating a side load on the pinion. Using the other tweezers I was able to orientate directly above the cannon pinion and do a straight pull - well it made sense at the time

Watch is back together and working fine now, thanks to all for the help, sometimes its good just to bounce ideas off others just to make sure I haven't gone off on a tangent or missed something - thanks for being my sounding board! 

[Waggy]