Is it possible to tighten ETA 2824 style cannon pinion?

[GuyMontag]

I'm working on a movement from a "clone" Omega that has a mix of Asian cloned 2824, 7750, and custom or unknown caliber parts. Parts are not available. The cannon pinion is loose and I don't know from which caliber (if any) it is based on. I measured it at 4.3mm high (including the driving wheel), so I don't think (?) it's a 2824 cannon pinion as the tallest (H6) is only 3.2mm tall, and I think that includes the driving wheel based on the schematics in the tech sheet.

So, if I can't source a replacement is there any way to tighten these? I would think it's not recommended to try and squeeze the two arms closer together as it may throw the wheel out of round. Can the distance between the arms be decreased by peening the arms where it contacts the cannon pinion? Or, I'm wondering if maybe the driving wheel alone could be swapped out, but I'd need to know for what caliber. Is there an easy way to tell by measuring the wheel?

Edited October 19, 2023 by GuyMontag

[nevenbekriev]

Just take the pinion out of the weel, turn the wheel upside down and then put back the pinion on

[GuyMontag]

10 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Just take the pinion out of the weel, turn the wheel upside down and then put back the pinion on

Interesting. How does that tighten the fitting between the wheel and the cannon pinion?

BTW, what is the best way to remove the pinion from the wheel without distorting the wheel?

[Jon]

56 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

I'm working on a movement from a "clone" Omega that has a mix of Asian cloned 2824, 7750, and custom or unknown caliber parts. Parts are not available. The cannon pinion is loose and I don't know from which caliber (if any) it is based on. I measured it at 4.3mm high (including the driving wheel), so I don't think (?) it's a 2824 cannon pinion as the tallest (H6) is only 3.2mm tall, and I think that includes the driving wheel based on the schematics in the tech sheet.

So, if I can't source a replacement is there any way to tighten these? I would think it's not recommended to try and squeeze the two arms closer together as it may throw the wheel out of round. Can the distance between the arms be decreased by peening the arms where it contacts the cannon pinion? Or, I'm wondering if maybe the driving wheel alone could be swapped out, but I'd need to know for what caliber. Is there an easy way to tell by measuring the wheel?

You have highlighted why working on clone movements is a fruitless effort if something doesn't work quite right.

If it is an ETA driving wheel and cannon pinion, you would replace it as standard practice, rather than bodge it as suggested to you earlier. I'm confused about how removing it and then replacing it would have any effect on its tightness as no explanation was given. If anything it would make it looser, but hey! That's not to say it can't be done, but removing the cannon pinion from the driving wheel may very well distort the wheel badly. If it isn't distorted then the two 'arms' could be brought together, but judging how much and how tight is a bit of a guess until it goes together again. Again, replacing the cannon pinion could likely distort the wheel. Good luck with it!

19 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

Interesting. How does that tighten the fitting between the wheel and the cannon pinion?

BTW, what is the best way to remove the pinion from the wheel without distorting the wheel?

I'm confused by that as well

Edited October 19, 2023 by Jon

[Nucejoe]

If the piece is pricy, best to replace with new one.

To repair, clean and roughen the groove of canon pinion with sand paper, if your lucky might works.

 

[HectorLooi]

How about replacing it a Chinese clone cannon pinion?

Check it out! SG$2.83  32%OFF | 1/2/5PCS Replacement Watches Mechanical Movement 242 Cannon Pinion With Driving Wheel Spare Part Metal For ETA 2824-2 Tools
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mtlRUEU

 

[GuyMontag]

4 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

How about replacing it a Chinese clone cannon pinion?

Check it out! SG$2.83  32%OFF | 1/2/5PCS Replacement Watches Mechanical Movement 242 Cannon Pinion With Driving Wheel Spare Part Metal For ETA 2824-2 Tools
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mtlRUEU

 

I'm not sure that the part I need is a direct swap in from a 2824. Above I mentioned that my cannon pinion measures 4.3mm while none of the 2824 are above 3.2mm.

If I could find a part to swap in that would be my first choice but I don't know if this is a custom part or a clone of an existing cannon pinion.

[HectorLooi]

Oh I see.

Actually I have tightened cannon pinions by squeezing the parallel bars with no issues. The actual movement of the bars is just microns.

 

[oldhippy]

My experience you can't tighten them. Your best bet is to replace it.  

[GuyMontag]

What is the recommended way to remove the cannon pinion from the driving wheel?

[HectorLooi]

You'll be surprised how easily these type of friction pinions come apart. Sometimes when the hour hand is tight, just using a presto hand remover will pop the pinion off with the hands.

I would hold the tube in a pinvise and carefully lift the wheel. It usually comes apart without much force. To fit the wheel back in, I just do the reverse.

[GuyMontag]

Thanks, I'll give that a shot.

 

[oldhippy]

9 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

What is the recommended way to remove the cannon pinion from the driving wheel?

There isn't one. 

[HectorLooi]

52 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

There isn't one. 

Haha. Not recommended but works.

Like rinsing watch parts in Ronsonol. 

[nevenbekriev]

On 10/19/2023 at 10:34 PM, GuyMontag said:

Interesting. How does that tighten the fitting between the wheel and the cannon pinion?

BTW, what is the best way to remove the pinion from the wheel without distorting the wheel?

Well, The place of the pinion where the wheel sits is a little conical. That's why the wheel wears this way - conically - in other words - the size of the 'hole' is smaller on the one side than on the other. Turning the wheel makes two cones fit oposite, thus the normal tightness of the fitting is reached. Without need to tighten anything.

I am wondering, didn't You try what i said??? This is so simle and takes no more than a minute!

Edited October 23, 2023 by nevenbekriev

[oldhippy]

2 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Haha. Not recommended but works.

Like rinsing watch parts in Ronsonol. 

I'ts like another post how to bend pin pallets to change the depth of escaping to the escape wheel. It's in one of  De Carle's books so it must be right. 

[HectorLooi]

Maybe we should start a new post.

"Crazy things we do that work!" 

Or "I saw it on YouTube, so it must be right!"

[Neverenoughwatches]

50 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I'ts like another post how to bend pin pallets to change the depth of escaping to the escape wheel. It's in one of  De Carle's books so it must be right. 

Oy i am here you know

[oldhippy]

Yes I know. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Yes I know. 

Haha to be fair three of us all thought it was a crazy idea trying to bend them , it didnt stop de carle writing a book with quite a few barmy tricks to try. 

44 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Maybe we should start a new post.

"Crazy things we do that work!" 

Or "I saw it on YouTube, so it must be right!"

I do crazy things all the time at work, i just make sure nobody is around when i do them, saves me having to explain why it didnt work

[GuyMontag]

5 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Well, The place of the pinion where the wheel sits is a little conical. That's why the wheel wears this way - conically - in other words - the size of the 'hole' is smaller on the one side than on the other. Turning the wheel makes two cones fit oposite, thus the normal tightness of the fitting is reached. Without need to tighten anything.

I am wondering, didn't You try what i said??? This is so simle and takes no more than a minute!

That's what I'm going to try when I finish servicing. Parts are in the tray but I'm waiting on some winders as all of my arbors were too large for the inner coil (~ 2mm).

Edited October 23, 2023 by GuyMontag