Sweep second moves setting hour

[brunomartins]

Hi!

After cleaning my watch, this issue appeared. When setting hours the second hand has some movement.

What may cause this? Too much tight hands?

The image shows the problem

[Waggy]

Coins be hands fouling, also check the leaf spring correctly sitting on the back of the seconds pinion if it has one. This spring is there to stop the seconds hand 'stuttering'. Just need to pop the back off and look.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

29 minutes ago, brunomartins said:

Hi!

After cleaning my watch, this issue appeared. When setting hours the second hand has some movement.

What may cause this? Too much tight hands?

The image shows the problem

The second hand moving backwards when setting the time backwards is quite common. I'm not sure i would call it an issue. Just tried it on my 2 year old seiko 5 and the second hand stops while i set the time. The main reason i always set the time forwards.

[Nucejoe]

 Does the oscilator stop or slow down when  seconds hands moves anti clock?  

What amplitude you get  ( in wind position of the crown ) ? 

 

[brunomartins]

11 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 Does the oscilator stop or slow down when  seconds hands moves anti clock?  

What amplitude you get  ( in wind position of the crown ) ? 

 

Yes it slow down a little bit. Amplitude around 190

[mikepilk]

What is the movement ?

[brunomartins]

3 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

What is the movement ?

Omega cal 601

[mikepilk]

I just tried my cal 613 (same movement with date) and moving the hands doesn't have an effect on the seconds hand. I agree with @Waggy that it's probably the friction spring for the sweep seconds pinion.

Edited September 26, 2023 by mikepilk

[RichardHarris123]

These may help. 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, brunomartins said:

Yes it slow down a little bit. Amplitude around 190

So the next test would be to remove the hr, min and seconds hands and repeat the test you did before;

If didn't slow down the oscilator, its the hand tubes that rub.

if did , the fault is with the canon pinion and/ or minute gear, tight canon pinion ....etc. 

You already have the canon pinion mounted on center arbour, so it needs not to be broached, just add a bit of oil on center arbour and turn the crown, this will reduce friction there and if you remove/ clean the oil/ grease the center arbour your done.

Stuttering seconds hand can be moved anti clock, but something must move it back, which takes us to faults said above.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Nucejoe

[mikepilk]

As the sweep seconds pinion sits inside the centre wheel, if there isn't enough tension on the friction spring, then the pinion may lose contact with the wheel driving it, then moving the hands (i.e. centre wheel) will move the seconds hand.  Does it do it if you have the face downwards?

Edited September 28, 2023 by mikepilk

[Nucejoe]

On 9/26/2023 at 4:47 PM, brunomartins said:

Yes it slow down a little bit. Amplitude around 190

 

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

 then the pinion may lose contact with the wheel driving it, then moving the hands (i.e. centre wheel) will move the seconds hand.  

 How does loss of contact between the pinion and driving wheel expalin the slowing down of the oscilator ?    which only slows when setting the hands.

Rgds

[brunomartins]

10 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 

 How does loss of contact between the pinion and driving wheel expalin the slowing down of the oscilator ?    which only slows when setting the hands.

Rgds

Just to update I manage to test with hands off and could not tell difference 

[HectorLooi]

Try putting the hands back on, remove the balance and see if on a full lock on the pallet whether the second hand can still move.

[Nucejoe]

5 hours ago, brunomartins said:

Just to update I manage to test with hands off and could not tell difference 

So the culprit is  NOT the hands tube rubbing .

I made a mistake in my previous post,

I said " its the hand"       should have said  " its not the hands "          

 

So , CANON PINION IS TIGHT.   Being already mounted on center tube means theres a good chance broaching is not needed, presuming you have lubricated the CANON PINION-CENTER TUBE , advancing the hands like 10 times round the clock should wipe out that  excess friction, thus you should gain back considerable amplitude and  seconds hand should no longer go back either. 

Rgds

 

[Jon]

On 9/26/2023 at 1:07 PM, brunomartins said:

After cleaning my watch, this issue appeared

I know you said you cleaned your watch, but I'm not going to make the assumption that you have serviced and properly lubricated it.

If you look at the third wheel on this Rolex 1215 (in the giff I posted) which drives the sweep second pinion (which isn't in situ), you'll find this moves quite a bit when setting the hands anti-clockwise, which in turn will always move the sweep second pinion regardless of how much tension you put on the brake spring. This is because the gear train is being moved when setting the hands anti-clockwise which strongly infers that the centre wheel is being turned via the cannon pinion and the whole gear train as well, thus a drop in amplitude and sometimes brings the movement to a complete stop. This is either the centre wheel not being lubricated properly, or/and the cannon pinion being slightly too tight on the centre wheel. Some like to have the movement come to a complete standstill as this is a type of 'hack'. I call it a 'poor man's hack'. The hand moving backward isn't such a big problem and you'll find that happens with other movements.

I'm guessing you didn't replace the mainspring, as a good amount of power/torque from the mainspring through the gear train will massively help overcome this, also, as I've already said, a well-lubricated centre wheel before the cannon pinion goes on and the correct tightness of the cannon pinion will also alleviate this. If you have a low amplitude, it suggests the mainspring needs replacing. If you haven't got at least 270 to 280 degrees amplitude, there is very little that you can do to solve this, as broaching the cannon pinion will only make the hand-setting sloppy.

That's why I initially asked about servicing and lubricating properly and this is why I bang on about changing the mainspring as standard because you are trying to diagnose and solve a problem when it was screaming at you all along. Not enough power from the mainspring!

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Jon said:

I know you said you cleaned your watch, but I'm not going to make the assumption that you have serviced and properly lubricated it.

If you look at the third wheel on this Rolex 1215 (in the giff I posted) which drives the sweep second pinion (which isn't in situ), you'll find this moves quite a bit when setting the hands anti-clockwise, which in turn will always move the sweep second pinion regardless of how much tension you put on the brake spring. This is because the gear train is being moved when setting the hands anti-clockwise which strongly infers that the centre wheel is being turned via the cannon pinion and the whole gear train as well, thus a drop in amplitude and sometimes brings the movement to a complete stop. This is either the centre wheel not being lubricated properly, or/and the cannon pinion being slightly too tight on the centre wheel. Some like to have the movement come to a complete standstill as this is a type of 'hack'. I call it a 'poor man's hack'. The hand moving backward isn't such a big problem and you'll find that happens with other movements.

I'm guessing you didn't replace the mainspring, as a good amount of power/torque from the mainspring through the gear train will massively help overcome this, also, as I've already said, a well-lubricated centre wheel before the cannon pinion goes on and the correct tightness of the cannon pinion will also alleviate this. If you have a low amplitude, it suggests the mainspring needs replacing. If you haven't got at least 270 to 280 degrees amplitude, there is very little that you can do to solve this, as broaching the cannon pinion will only make the hand-setting sloppy.

That's why I initially asked about servicing and lubricating properly and this is why I bang on about changing the mainspring as standard because you are trying to diagnose and solve a problem when it was screaming at you all along. Not enough power from the mainspring!

I didn't put it quite as detailed or as eloquently as you Jon , but i did kinda say its quite common. Did anyone listen ?

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, Jon said:

 The hand moving backward isn't such a big problem and you'll find that happens with other movements.

Jobbers would have hard time convincing the watch owner to accept this.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Jobbers would have hard time convincing the watch owner to accept this.

 

 

they're a funny breed watch collectors, very particular, very critical, very " i know there is something wrong with my watch " kind of people.  Did i just say that out loud ?  

[Jon]

24 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Jobbers would have hard time convincing the watch owner to accept this.

 

 

A new mainspring, a strong amplitude, good service with proper lubrication, and a perfect cannon pinion tightness, then there would be no need for any explanation, as there wouldn't be any movement of the second hand in this manner.... lol 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Jon

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, Jon said:

A new mainspring, a strong amplitude, good service with proper lubrication, and a perfect cannon pinion tightness, then there would be no need for any explanation, as there wouldn't be any movement of the second hand in this manner.... lol 

thats a perfect test for me then, if the second hand moves backwards when setting the hand anticlockwise then I've made a crap job of the service. Probably why most of mine do that haha.

[brunomartins]

Hi everyone ! Thanks for all valuable tips! I tried some procedures and the problem has been solved. 
Basically I removed all hands, cleaned the second pinion, replaced hour and min hands to check a proper sit of them. After this I replaced the second pinion, lubricated the pivot that makes contact with the jewel. I also pulled little the spring the elevate this pinion (not sure if this was ell done).

Finally put the second hand with more accuracy and now the second hand is working properly.