Hamilton 736 Amplitude

[Gruden]

Looking for advice on low amplitude. Recent service on a Hamilton 736 (cleaning, oiling, NOS mainspring replacement) result is low amplitude (186 in dial down position). Suspect the NOS mainspring may be the issue but unclear how to proceed.

 

John

[RichardHarris123]

Hello and welcome, we usually introduce ourselves ourselves on here.  Without the pallet inserted does the wheel train run freely? Does the pallet snap back and forth?  Does the balance, without the fork spin freely with a  puff of air ? 

[mikepilk]

As @RichardHarris123 says, you want the gear train to be running absolutely freely without the pallets. If not, try fitting each wheel alone, check endshake, and see it spins freely with a puff from the blower.

With a good blast from the blower (with the pallets removed) the balance should still be oscillating well after 30s.

It's rarely the mainspring, but if it's really old, could be. 

[Nucejoe]

Isn't Hamilton 836 an ETA based caliber ?

What kind of amplitude were you getting with the old Mainspring? 

Are you set up to show the lock on pallets? 

Do you feel any end shake on balance pivots ?

What mainspring did you put in the barrel, size & ref No.

 

 

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Gruden said:

Hamilton 736

Always nice to give a picture of what every working on so we know what it is and we don't have to do what I'm currently doing which is looking it up to see what it is. With the added bonus it avoids things like what I quoted below

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Isn't Hamilton 836 an ETA based caliber

According to the link I have it looks like it's not. Oh and you're off by one digit and if you look at the link below you see the size reference of 8/0 SIZE Which indicates it some sort of American watch possibly a wristwatch but I'm not entirely sure yet.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=HAM_736

Then the only picture I would find the right now is on eBay this is not the best example it appears to be in bad condition but it now gives us an understanding of what were talking about

5 hours ago, Gruden said:

Looking for advice on low amplitude. Recent service on a Hamilton 736 (cleaning, oiling, NOS mainspring replacement) result is low amplitude (186 in dial down position). Suspect the NOS mainspring may be the issue but unclear how to proceed.

I think background history like what was the background history of the watch before you serviced it? Then new old stock mainspring or Swiss mainspring? What are you using the time the watch in other words timing machine versus timing app on your phone?Can we have pictures and ideally we want to see dial-up and dial down and one crown position down would workfor timing or at least give us the numbers

then even a new old stock mainspring when wound up tight should still run the watch at least for a little while.

Oh and as you're new here and haven't done an introduction yet is this your first watch servicing? Yes I have more questions but this is enough to get you started

 

[Gruden]

Thanks for all the responses. Yes, new here. Can't get the Profile to update (using Firefox as a browser) even after multiple attempts. Will not let me add a photo or proceed to add info from there. That's another issue.

As stated, the assembled watch runs with low amplitude. Train spins well with balance and pallet fork removed. Pallet fork snaps back and forth under a good wind. The installed balance responds to puff of air. No end/side shake evident. NOS (new old stock) mainspring is a 8/0 Dynavar specified for the 736 movement. I did not check amplitude prior to service. I use a Bulova Watchmaster ultrasonic for cleaning parts, and One-Dip to clean the balance end stones. Timing machine is Weishi 1000. In dial up position, the amplitude drops further, which I thought was end shake issue but there is no end shake.

 

Since I'm a nubie watchsmith (one year and about a dozen services under my belt), I figured that I must be overlooking something. Thanks for everyone's time and thoughts.

 

John

[JohnR725]

16 minutes ago, Gruden said:

Timing machine is Weishi 1000.

We do really like pictures on the group. I was thinking pictures I love pictures. Why don't you wind the watch up let it run about 15 minutes and take a picture on the timing machine specific that want the timing machine picture so we can see with the graphical display the numbers look like etc. Like starting with dial down the classic position. Then flip it over switch dial up Wait about 30 seconds and take another picture than same thing again with another one crown down and let us see all three pictures.

28 minutes ago, Gruden said:

NOS (new old stock) mainspring is a 8/0 Dynavar specified for the 736 movement.

If it's a new old stock mainspring it should be just fine. I found the original Hamilton and Elgin for that matter even the original springs are actually a better shape than the modern Swiss replacements. But I can't tell to the parts list of looking at what type of end is found on that mainspring? In other words is that a T end spring?

[Nucejoe]

4 hours ago, Gruden said:

The installed balance responds to puff of air. No end/side shake evident. 

 Its running and does 180 degrees, so would respond to puff air for sure. The right question would have been,

HOW WELL DOES IT RESPOND?          or 

HOW FREE IS THE BALANCE ? 

Also clarify if you will,            " No end shake evident"    do you mean no end shake issue?         or        No end shake ? 

End shake is neccessary, its good,    Excessive amount of end shake  is problematic.

In case you feel no end shake on balance pivots, loosen balance cock screw a turn or two to create some end shake then you should immediately gain amplitude.

The question of lock on pallets has remained unanswered.

Fork should snap back and forth with half turn of wind.

Rgds

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Nucejoe

[Gruden]

Thanks for your comments.

 

The pallet fork appears to snap back and forth with authority (partial wind). I rotated position on the Timegrapher and amplitude changes significantly. Does that point to balance cap jewels issue? The movement does not logically respond to regulation adjustment (F/S).

 

Regards,

 

John

[mikepilk]

What is the end shake of the balance?  i.e. looking from the side of the balance, with tweezers GENTLY move the outside edge of the balance wheel up and down. Looking at the balance staff - how far does it move? You need a little free vertical movement.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Gruden said:

I rotated position on the Timegrapher and amplitude changes significantly. Does that point to balance cap jewels issue? The movement does not logically respond to regulation adjustment (F/S).

Crystal ball time in the absence of pictures. When doing remote diagnostics we rely on your expertise Evaluation which you don't have yet. Which means I get to make a wild guess or it be nice if you could give us some pictures

also a picture of the timing machine with graphical display just because it's helpful to look at that

in the meantime look really carefully at your balance wheel especially the hairspring is it flat, is it between the regulator pins isn't touching anything that's not supposed to be touching visually when you slowly change from dial down to rotating it keeping an eye on the balance wheel visually does it look like it changes dramatically? But it really would be helpful to get some pictures otherwise we will guess and we like guessing.

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, Gruden said:

I rotated position on the Timegrapher and amplitude changes significantly. Does that point to balance cap jewels issue? 

 What position did you change ( the movement )  to what other position. 

[Gruden]

On 9/11/2023 at 9:23 AM, mikepilk said:

What is the end shake of the balance?  i.e. looking from the side of the balance, with tweezers GENTLY move the outside edge of the balance wheel up and down. Looking at the balance staff - how far does it move? You need a little free vertical movement.

Thanks for the reply. Very little free vertical movement; very little side to side movement. No hairspring issue that I can see. Dial down image is amplitude 157; dial up image is amplitude 136. Close-up (as iphone camera allows). Iphone video does not load.

[tomh207]

With the amplitude so low any poising issues will be greatly magnified. 

[mikepilk]

15 hours ago, Gruden said:

Very little free vertical movement;

So there is some free vertical movement?  If you watch this vid at 4:30 he shows how to check end shake.

 

With the balance stopped, can you get a close up pic of the hairspring from the top, and side?
If you hold a loupe over the camera lens, you can get surprisingly good pics.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by mikepilk

[Nucejoe]

 When you suspect loss of amplitude due to insufficient end shake, all you need to do is TO LOOSEN THE COCK SCREW UP TO TWO TURNS, thus creating some end shake, so should immediately gain amplitude 

 We often suspect loss of amplitude as being due to dirty jewels, a test here is to simply drop a bit of lighter fluid on top of the cap stone, the fluid will find its way to the jewel hole and temporarily softens the residual oil there, thus you should immediately see a gain in amplitude, lighter fluid will evaporate in a few seconds thereafter you might loose the amplitude back. Avoid getting  any fluid on hairspring as that temporarely causes the coils to stick and you see significan amplitude loss, if you did get fluid on hairspring, alternative blow of air on balance rim in one direction only  supplies the balance with torque and keeps it oscilating.

Rgds

[Gruden]

Thanks for that tip/advice. I'm living with the Hamilton performane at the moment and letting it "run in" for a while. Currently flummoxed by an issue with an Omega Seamaster. After a full service (cleaning, new mainspring, assembly and oiling) the canon pinion is very tight. Almost impossible to set the hands. Unsure how this could have happened. If I remember correctly, setting the hands was normal prior to service. I might try relieving a bit of the tightness by using a smoothing broach on the internal protrusion in the the canon pinion (not the internal diameter - just the internal dimple made at the factory). Any thoughts?

 

Thanks!

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Gruden said:

Currently flummoxed by an issue with an Omega Seamaster. After a full service (cleaning, new mainspring, assembly and oiling) the canon pinion is very tight. Almost impossible to set the hands. Unsure how this could have happened. If I remember correctly, setting the hands was normal prior to service. I might try relieving a bit of the tightness by using a smoothing broach on the internal protrusion in the the canon pinion (not the internal diameter - just the internal dimple made at the factory). Any thoughts?

Always best if were discussing another watch to start a new discussion for that watch. Each watch tends to be unique and each watch should have its own unique discussion.  The other reason for starting a new discussion is you've changed the subject and that means you decrease the number of people who will help you because people may not realize that were now discussing Omega watch and people will think this is still a Hamilton discussion.

Then Omega has made quite a few watches and there could be a reason for this depending upon which model it is. Also how did you lubricate the Canon pinion?

On 9/12/2023 at 1:36 PM, Gruden said:

Dial down image is amplitude 157; dial up image is amplitude 136.

Returning to the Hamilton discussion. What was the watch doing before you serviced it? In other words why did you service the watch was a running before. Always helpful for narrowing down problems if we can figure out when the problem may have started.