Balance wheel Omega cal 269

[whathaveidone]

Help with balance alignment. Restoring a cal 269 and the balance wheel sits off-center compressing the spring.  The spring itself appears centered.  Is it the wrong balance bridge for the movement?  

Or is it the wrong balance wheel?  In looking up other balance wheels online they don't have the counter weight screws. 

[Nucejoe]

 I presume the upper pivot is in the jewel hole, in your picture, if so, 

hairspring looks too long. 

[Jon]

That balance cock doesn't look like it matches that hairspring. One of them is wrong. There is no way that stud will fit and keep the hairspring centred. If you reduce the length of the hairspring so it fits, then the timing will massively increase, which infers it is wrong from the start.

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 hours ago, whathaveidone said:

Help with balance alignment. Restoring a cal 269 and the balance wheel sits off-center compressing the spring.  The spring itself appears centered.  Is it the wrong balance bridge for the movement?  

Or is it the wrong balance wheel?  In looking up other balance wheels online they don't have the counter weight screws. 

A hs can invariably look like its ok when the balance is not mounted in the cock (top photo) as it isn't under any restriction. The bottom picture look at the bunched up coils near the stud, the hs looks way too big in diameter.  Like a raw spring has been fitted with no adjustment made.

[JohnR725]

14 hours ago, whathaveidone said:

Restoring a cal 269

What did it look like before you started restoring it?

 

[RichardHarris123]

The balance wheel shouldn't have screws. 

[JohnR725]

27 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

The balance wheel shouldn't have screws.

The parts list is agreeing with your assessment no screws it's a modern balance wheel.

269_complet_2016.pdf

[Nucejoe]

You are in the position to find the answer to some of your questions.

The cock is the right one if it fits on the mainplate plus upper&lower jewels  align.

Balance can work if it fits  and roller engages with the fork and escapement escape nicely.

This spring might have the proper strengh to match with the balance at hand.

Screw balance can work even if not the original and original was modern.

 I reinstal this balance/cock assembly on the movement and check if it fits with no problem and properly engages with the fork, next  check how nice the escapement escapes, if alright, you can have tons of fun rebuilding a balance complete out of this existing balance, perhaps with the same spring, cut, repin .... so much fun so you run away fast. 

Regards

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Nucejoe

[mikepilk]

Looking at the Ranfft, some versions have a Breguet hairspring. WatchGuy has a pic of a 265 which does have weights on the balance wheel and a Breguet hairspring. 

[praezis]

My suspicion: it should have a Breguet hairspring. Please show the regulator (-pins) in detail.

Frank

[Nucejoe]

The shape of the stud holder indicates breguet hairpsring, but Dr ranfft says 269 came with a flat one only.

I did wonder if ;    the cock of a flat and breguet in this family fit on same mainplates, unfortunately couldn't find the answer from julesborel, mizeni didn't help any either, so I think we need to see the calib No as well as an upclose of the regulator arm. 

Balance cock of a flat 269 might fit a variant with overcoil, OP didn't include history of the watch either, so who knows, not a mumbi yet an ebay special perhaps.

 

 

 

 

[RichardHarris123]

12 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

The shape of the stud holder indicates breguet hairpsring, but Dr ranfft says 269 came with a flat one only.

I did wonder if ;    the cock of a flat and breguet in this family fit on same mainplates, unfortunately couldn't find the answer from julesborel, mizeni didn't help any either, so I think we need to see the calib No as well as an upclose of the regulator arm. 

Balance cock of a flat 269 might fit a variant with overcoil, OP didn't include history of the watch either, so who knows, not a mumbi yet an ebay special perhaps.

 

 

 

 

What is the difference in shape between a breguet and flat stud holder. 

[mikepilk]

Is the stud holder adjustable or fixed ?

Jules Borel lists it as " OME 269 OMEGA NOVOCHOC ADJUSTABLE STUDHOLDER"

If it's fixed, you have the wrong balance cock.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

What is the difference in shape between a breguet and flat stud holder. 

I thought this initially when seeing the post, but sometimes you'd rather not take the risk of looking stupid .  My guess would be set further in and higher up. You're bringing the outer coil in from and up above from the regulator pins instead of at the same level and within the same arc as them .

[JohnR725]

20 hours ago, whathaveidone said:

Is it the wrong balance bridge for the movement?

Doesn't anyone find this an odd comment? 

Did anyone notice that I attached the PDF of the parts list for the watch up above? If you look at the Ranfft Watches Website you'll see this watch the 269 is part of the family. Sometimes what happens is people get confused over what exactly that means like my quoted statement above does that mean we can mix and match from all the parts of the family because they're all related?

Perhaps we should look at the parts list I think that might be helpful so I'll just snip out images.

 

Reading the top part of the parts list tells us that the list has the parts unique or different than the base caliber and the base caliber is 260.

One of the minor problems with the Ranfft Watches site Is it Gives us a lot of information but doesn't give us everything which is what's presenting a problem for this discussion. So for instance did you notice something that's titled family/generations:. In other words an evolution in this particular case improvements or changes made over time.

So if we go down the list we get to 268: ring- instead screw balance This tells us that the balance wheel no longer has screws. It doesn't tell us anything else it just tells us the balance wheel has changed with probably still having the over coil hairspring.

Then the next entry 269: flat- instead Breguet-hairspring Another evolution this would be the screwless balance wheel of 268 now has a flat hairspring.

Now let's look at the parts unique to the caliber 269and how does it relate to this discussion?

As you can see a lot of things have changed not just the final change the hairspring. Look at all the new parts we get is that a balance bridge I see in the parts list? Definitely looks like a balance bridge and to go with your shiny new balance bridge we have a stud holder and the regulator pins. In a course to go with that the balance wheel without screws in a flat hairspring.

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

What is the difference in shape between a breguet and flat stud holder. 

Conceivably the shape could be identical that's not the difference that were looking for. The breguet Hairspring versus the flat will have the stud and the regulator pins in a very different location.

Now back to my unanswered question of

20 hours ago, whathaveidone said:

Restoring a cal 269

I wonder what that actually means? For instance is somebody mixing and matching parts of the same family because they never bothered to look at the parts list to see what the differences?

 

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

What is the difference in shape between a breguet and flat stud holder. 

Let me furthure confuse you, though neverenough explained the reason why there different. 

Breguet stud holder and regulator are shorter that the radius of the lower ( main) coil.

whereas stud holder fixed&mobile for flat spring are longer than the main coil.

 

21 hours ago, whathaveidone said:

 Is it the wrong balance bridge for the movement?  

Yes definately the wrong balance COCK  for cal 269.

The question then is, would the cock of a variant for ( breguet overcoil) mount on 269 mainplate?  I did go to online resources for the answer to no avail.

Are you sure its cal 269.

Rgds

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Nucejoe

[whathaveidone]

6 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Let me furthure confuse you, though neverenough explained the reason why there different. 

Breguet stud holder and regulator are shorter that the radius of the lower ( main) coil.

whereas stud holder fixed&mobile for flat spring are longer than the main coil.

 

Yes definately the wrong balance COCK  for cal 269.

The question then is, would the cock of a variant for ( breguet overcoil) mount on 269 mainplate?  I did go to online resources for the answer to no avail.

Are you sure its cal 269.

Rgds

 

Yes, I am CERTAIN this is a 269 - the one thing I got right so far.  in looking closer at the spring I think it is, or was, an overcoil before I adjusted it.  I thought it was bent out of shape.  I'll attempt bending it back to the original.  I'm sure that will end well.  

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Doesn't anyone find this an odd comment? 

Did anyone notice that I attached the PDF of the parts list for the watch up above? If you look at the Ranfft Watches Website you'll see this watch the 269 is part of the family. Sometimes what happens is people get confused over what exactly that means like my quoted statement above does that mean we can mix and match from all the parts of the family because they're all related?

Perhaps we should look at the parts list I think that might be helpful so I'll just snip out images.

 

Reading the top part of the parts list tells us that the list has the parts unique or different than the base caliber and the base caliber is 260.

One of the minor problems with the Ranfft Watches site Is it Gives us a lot of information but doesn't give us everything which is what's presenting a problem for this discussion. So for instance did you notice something that's titled family/generations:. In other words an evolution in this particular case improvements or changes made over time.

So if we go down the list we get to 268: ring- instead screw balance This tells us that the balance wheel no longer has screws. It doesn't tell us anything else it just tells us the balance wheel has changed with probably still having the over coil hairspring.

Then the next entry 269: flat- instead Breguet-hairspring Another evolution this would be the screwless balance wheel of 268 now has a flat hairspring.

Now let's look at the parts unique to the caliber 269and how does it relate to this discussion?

As you can see a lot of things have changed not just the final change the hairspring. Look at all the new parts we get is that a balance bridge I see in the parts list? Definitely looks like a balance bridge and to go with your shiny new balance bridge we have a stud holder and the regulator pins. In a course to go with that the balance wheel without screws in a flat hairspring.

Conceivably the shape could be identical that's not the difference that were looking for. The breguet Hairspring versus the flat will have the stud and the regulator pins in a very different location.

Now back to my unanswered question of

I wonder what that actually means? For instance is somebody mixing and matching parts of the same family because they never bothered to look at the parts list to see what the differences?

 

What does anything really mean, JohnR?  What I actually mean is I purchased the watch off ebay.  Should I have said refurbish?  Repairing?  Practicing?  Please inform so I don't cause so much confusion in the future.  

 

7 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Is the stud holder adjustable or fixed ?

Jules Borel lists it as " OME 269 OMEGA NOVOCHOC ADJUSTABLE STUDHOLDER"

If it's fixed, you have the wrong balance cock.

Stud holder is fixed.  

[JohnR725]

19 minutes ago, whathaveidone said:

What does anything really mean, JohnR?  What I actually mean is I purchased the watch off ebay.  Should I have said refurbish?  Repairing?  Practicing?  Please inform so I don't cause so much confusion in the future. 

Don't worry everyone causes confusion in the beginning. One of the ways to avoid initial confusion is picture of the entire watch so we know what you're talking about as we are having confusions over that. I think a picture of the entire watch would answer a lot of questions.

20 minutes ago, whathaveidone said:

Stud holder is fixed.  

If you're new to watch repair this might present a confusion yes the image looks fixed but we really do the image looking straight down because is it fixed I don't think so perhaps we need better pictures?

For better pictures I found a link. Now I can swipe some pictures and yes they came from the link

As you can see in the fuzzy picture I swiped it's a movable stockholder it's not fixed

I see he has another picture you can see the hairspring much better it's a flat hairspring with the balance wheel that has no screws plus notice the terminal curve?

A little searching online and I found a picture of the balance complete

 

 

https://watchguy.co.uk/service-omega-calibre-269/

 

40 minutes ago, whathaveidone said:

Stud holder is fixed. 

Let's see if I can help with another pictureWe know that this is part of a family so let's drop back to something that does not have a movable stud older like the 266 how does it compare

Casually they look the same but they're not the non-movable stud holder is usually part of the upper balance bridge it's all one piece Ewers is shaped a little differently and I suspect if you give it a little push it should move although it does look like rust on your hairspring studs screw it could be an issue.

We still have on answered questions though incoming watch from eBay what was its condition like and did you document by taking pictures of it? Because very clearly it's not supposed to have a balance wheel with screws. It now has a flat hairspring and if you flattened and over coil congratulations you did an outstanding job of it because well yes you did a really good job of that now I like to see you put the over coil back I find doing that kind of thing is a real pain in the ass but you still have the wrong balance wheel

one of the unfortunate problems with eBay is and not just eBay which is back to the original condition of Howell was described and sold is if somebody had done some mixing and matching to give you a complete watch so they can sell their complete watch.

 

I found a better picture of the 266 balance bridge as you can see the stud is mounted on the bridge not movable

Then a better picture of the 269 movable Stud holder which as we will note has been moved.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, whathaveidone said:

 looking closer at the spring I think it is, or was, an overcoil before I adjusted it.  I thought it was bent out of shape.  I'll attempt bending it back to the original.  I'm sure that will end well.  

Oh what have you done  @whathaveidone , your confidence to reshape it back to the overcoil it was, is admirable.

There are videos and lessons showing how to shape an overcoil, but doing it technically right is kinda advanced. 

Good thing is, you get all the help you need here on WRT forum.

Good luck pal 

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

On 9/8/2023 at 5:55 PM, whathaveidone said:

in looking closer at the spring I think it is, or was, an overcoil before I adjusted it.  I thought it was bent out of shape.

I have to say, if that spring started as an overcoil, you did quite a fine job straightening it out! I'm very curious to see how you make out reshaping it.

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

I have to say, if that spring started as an overcoil, you did quite a fine job straightening it out! I'm very curious to see how you make out reshaping it.

Yes that is very impressive hairspring work were seeing isn't it. But if it really was in over coil and he puts it back the way he found it, it still is the wrong balance wheel and hairspring for the watch because this watch needs a balance wheel with no screws and a flat hairspring.

 

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

this watch needs a balance wheel with no screws and a flat hairspring.

John is there a reason TECHNICALLY why its must be a balance with no screws. 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

[JohnR725]

3 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

is there a reason TECHNICALLY why its must be a balance with no screws. 

If you're asking a theoretical question I'm attaching a PDF of what Omega thinks about this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Omega-have-adopted-the-screwless-balance.pdf

9 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

if that spring started as an overcoil

Thinking about that I guess it might help if we had the technical guide. And typically don't find technical guides because most of technical documentation was scanned for the purposes of the parts list.

So for instance if we had the technical guide like the one that's attached what can we learn? There's a reference to these are improved versions of prior watches as in the first paragraph. Then we get a list of the modifications and because typically people don't like to read PDFs I will snip out the important stuff

I've highlighted the interesting modifications and the technical guide talks a little more about those highlighted items like the adjustable stud holder

I do find sometimes with Omega because of how well they manufacture things that may be the adjustable stutter holder goes unnoticed. But it is definitely adjustable

then we have the balance wheel and hairspring

A rather nice image of 269 and I suppose you could squeeze the balance wheel in there with screws of course it would defeat the whole purpose of the improvements to the watch but I think you'd have a challenge doing it and I don't think on watches when improvements are made I don't think you can Downgrade to a earlier non-improved version and mixing and matching parts. That usually doesn't happen

 

 

 

Omega technical guide calibers 269 and 286.pdf

[whathaveidone]

On 9/10/2023 at 4:33 AM, ManSkirtBrew said:

I have to say, if that spring started as an overcoil, you did quite a fine job straightening it out! I'm very curious to see how you make out reshaping it.

It's not pretty and probably crazy out of time but it's oscillating. 

[RichardHarris123]

Definitely looks more centered.  It will be interesting to see the timing.