K&D or 3D winder? That is the question.

[arron]

Hi Guys.  I'm trying to decide between buying the older school k&d (model might be 123A, but not sure) winder and the modern 3D printed winder found on ebay.  I mainly work on pocket watches and have a multi-barrel watch craft set for those.  I don't plan to do many wristwatches but i do have a few 1940s small military style watches that I'm starting to work on.  The barrel for the current project is 9.3 mm, too small for the watch craft winder.  The K&D is about three times the cost but still under $100; but it is also size variable which might come in handy on another watch.  Any pros/cons of one or the other?  Thanks.  Arron

[oldhippy]

There's a lot on here about watch winders so just do a search.

[arron]

Good to hear from you Oldhippy.  I agree there is a lot of information about winders on this site and elsewhere online, probably too much .  I was close to hour 3, when my eyes were glazing over, of researching before posting my question--i probably only scratched the surface.  I am hoping to get a head to head comparison of these two types of winders before making a purchase.  What i found on the 3D winder was a 2021 discussion when it was in its prototype/initial stages of development, so it wasn't very helpful.  I didn't find any information on that K&D type winder; although after my post i stumbled upon a YT video where it is used; i'll post the link here in case others find it useful.  

Both of these winders looked a bit gimicky to me, but after watching the K&D video, it actually looks like it works pretty well as long as the arbor nub is in good shape.    

 

As a baby boomer, I like old school so i'm inclined to go with the K&D, unless I hear from others that the 3d version is a superb product.  Anywho, it's a three day weekend here in the US (who cares anymore, now that i'm mostly retired) so I'm hoping to order a winder and work on a watch that has been on my bench for a while.  I hope everyone has a good weekend.  Arron.

[oldhippy]

I'm no the one to advise you. My reason being is I'm what people call cack handed and I couldn't get on with them. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by oldhippy

[RichardHarris123]

14 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I'm no the one to advise you. My reason being is I'm what people call cock handed and I couldn't get on with them. 

Cack handed? 

[oldhippy]

You say Cack. Looks like I messed up. I'll edit it. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by oldhippy

[HectorLooi]

I've had some experience with the adjustable K&D mainspring winders. The have worked quite well when the arbor fits but they are not perfect. The arbor is sometimes too big and sometimes too small. 

And do not use these for automatic mainsprings. The automatic bridle can poke through one of the other 3 openings of the adjustable jaws and kink or even break the mainspring. 

There isn't a perfect mainspring winder system that will work in every situation. I already have 5 different winder systems and still have to wind an occasional mainspring by hand.

So @oldhippy, what mainspring winder worked for you? 

[oldhippy]

None. I learned how to put the spring back in its barrel without touching it. Most time I would replace with new. I had a vast stock.

Edited September 2, 2023 by oldhippy

[valleyguy]

Theres a set of 3d printed winders on ebay at a reasonable price, they've even printed a tray to keep the winders in order, at this price it's worth a punt.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/166283613292?hash=item26b746946c:g:96MAAOSwZwZk2P~8&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwAOO8Lwx%2B0vf6YbQOCCGddmH5ft62YuDE1N9YuBjXrI2ayg2fawlfM%2BTVJthDc226%2BE8vv5QyqQeEf5wx21Y81YomW5E3hs2nv8k4PzykzevgHS7T0XQ%2BYHD%2FAZb2HClCjIZB0wVqbmYRZLvAf7%2BemYxy6IOTDycHNdzGouHSibbbOo5dG%2Br%2Fj2wEbLMb4N2fFUHtwrinkzUnQGW5IuY9ofJcVbgwVMxNPfW36NU5V6Hy4lrt9U30S8p6zXEs8UwFg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8aA-6_LYg

Edited September 3, 2023 by valleyguy

[LittleWatchShop]

Well, I love that K&D you show in the picture.  I have several sets.  I have rebuilt the arbor on one and repinned the arbor on another.  So, they will last forever.  It is my go-to winder for everything but pocket watches.

I have several sets because I inherited one set from Dad and it was missing one of the arbors so, I bought another set and then I got bits and pieces more from watch tool lots.  My motto is to "Buy them all up before the hoarders get them."

[arron]

I appreciate everyone's input on this.  I went ahead and bid on a KD and got it at a very reasonable price.  So i'll try it out.  Hopefully it will work well.   

12 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Well, I love that K&D you show in the picture.  I have several sets.  I have rebuilt the arbor on one and repinned the arbor on another.  So, they will last forever.  It is my go-to winder for everything but pocket watches.

I had planned a future post about repinning an arbor but since you mentioned it, i have a set of watchcraft winder arbors that are missing their pins.  What is the process for repinning?  I assume i drill a hole, then insert a pin of some kind.  is there a good source for such a small piece of metal, or do you have to fabricate one; maybe a nail shaved down on a lathe?  Is the pin a straight cylinder, or do you put a hook at the end so it doesn't lose grip of the MS; maybe by peening the top of the pin or filing a slanted leading edge?  Any thoughts you have would be appreciated.

[LittleWatchShop]

4 hours ago, arron said:

I appreciate everyone's input on this.  I went ahead and bid on a KD and got it at a very reasonable price.  So i'll try it out.  Hopefully it will work well.   

I had planned a future post about repinning an arbor but since you mentioned it, i have a set of watchcraft winder arbors that are missing their pins.  What is the process for repinning?  I assume i drill a hole, then insert a pin of some kind.  is there a good source for such a small piece of metal, or do you have to fabricate one; maybe a nail shaved down on a lathe?  Is the pin a straight cylinder, or do you put a hook at the end so it doesn't lose grip of the MS; maybe by peening the top of the pin or filing a slanted leading edge?  Any thoughts you have would be appreciated.

Yes, I drill a hole. This is tricky to do. I turn a pin on my lathe. Then press it in. I use loctite if the fit is not tight enough.

[arron]

Did you make a hook on the end of the pin? if so, how did you do it?

[LittleWatchShop]

Nope...straight

[arron]

that makes it easier.  it's now on my list of projects to complete.  thanks again.

[Malocchio]

I've had a couple of these adjustable winders of different sizes for a while. I thought they were useless but I encountered a problem so I decided to give them a one more go. So the problem. Seiko 5606 barrel is just a bit too small for Bergeon #7 and #6 is too small so that the mainspring gets packet way too tight. The pins in the adjustable winder are symmetric. If you manage to wind the spring, there's no way getting the spring unhooked. That probably has to do with incorrect size/pin protruting too far. I filed one side of the pin sloped so you can get the spring unhooked while turning backwards. I haven't even had any trouble with the automatic bridle. Really great once you figure it out and have a winder with proper arbor/hook size. I originally bought these when I saw Spencer Klein use one. I think he still uses them.

K&D winder

 This is how the opposite side still looks.

I filed this pin on one side to be able to unhook the spring. It's like Bergeon right handed now.

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, Malocchio said:

I've had a couple of these adjustable winders of different sizes for a while. I thought they were useless but I encountered a problem so I decided to give them a one more go. So the problem. Seiko 5606 barrel is just a bit too small for Bergeon #7 and #6 is too small so that the mainspring gets packet way too tight. The pins in the adjustable winder are symmetric. If you manage to wind the spring, there's no way getting the spring unhooked. That probably has to do with incorrect size/pin protruting too far. I filed one side of the pin sloped so you can get the spring unhooked while turning backwards. I haven't even had any trouble with the automatic bridle. Really great once you figure it out and have a winder with proper arbor/hook size. I originally bought these when I saw Spencer Klein use one. I think he still uses them.

K&D winder

 This is how the opposite side still looks.

I filed this pin on one side to be able to unhook the spring. It's like Bergeon right handed now.

I have the set of 3 and use them regularly. I haven't touched the hooks on mine so they still wind both ways, up to now the hook has always backed out for me. It should be possible to get inside with a bent pin to pull the spring out just far enough at the back of the hook to release it and back it out.

[HectorLooi]

I filed all of mine very short, just a little longer than the thickness an average mainspring. It can wind both ways and can be released just by turning the arbor the opposie direction.

[LittleWatchShop]

After winding, I lift the arbor, insert a screwdriver and softly disengage from the spring. I like these ideas of shaving an angle on the pin. Will look into it

[Yoeri40]

hello all, i know this is an older treath but just discoverd it because i'm also interested in a K&D 123A.

I read above they can(t be used for mainsprings of automatics? Is that correct?

That is the reason why i'm looking for a mainspring winder. Springs from handwound movements i do perfectly by hand but i broke some springs for automatic.

Like to hear your opinion.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

40 minutes ago, Yoeri40 said:

hello all, i know this is an older treath but just discoverd it because i'm also interested in a K&D 123A.

I read above they can(t be used for mainsprings of automatics? Is that correct?

That is the reason why i'm looking for a mainspring winder. Springs from handwound movements i do perfectly by hand but i broke some springs for automatic.

Like to hear your opinion.

 

I use them for automatics.  As you get close to the reverse bend, you just feed it in...being careful.  I do not know how many I have done, but I recall having broken one once.  It was an old spring that was probably already fatigued.

[Yoeri40]

One last question, such an 123A can be adapted for barrels with a diameter between 8 and 11 mm is that correct and  does ik work well?

[LittleWatchShop]

4 hours ago, Yoeri40 said:

One last question, such an 123A can be adapted for barrels with a diameter between 8 and 11 mm is that correct and  does ik work well?

I measure 9mm to 11mm