Losing 5 minutes at 10 to the hour

[watchweasol]

Hi if the timing problem is indeed the slip clutch, depending on the type ( flat spring) or(coil spring ) the movement will need stripping down. I have only had one clock with a clutch slip and that had a coil spring and the bush that supplied the pressure was slipping back on the shaft releasing the pressure. It        Regarding the lever and the cam they should come off after the pin and the screw have been removed. There have not been many I have had lever/pry off.  Try holding thr shaft and rotating the cam and lever a little.

[Martyn58]

On 7/8/2023 at 9:45 AM, nickelsilver said:

Sounds to me like the friction is too low, and it's slipping when trying to move levers.

Sorry I overlooked getting back to you after your first reply  But yes, I think you’re right. And I’d say that the minute hand pipe is crimped on to the centre wheel arbor. I’ll try to get a close up photo tomorrow. 

[Martyn58]

13 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Regarding the lever and the cam they should come off after the pin and the screw have been removed. There have not been many I have had lever/pry off.  Try holding thr shaft and rotating the cam and lever a little.

Good morning! I was a little more determined this time and was able to remove both with a firmer pull and twist. 
Everything is cleaned and ready for reassembly now. I’m not able to remove mainsprings safely so that’s something for the future. 

14 hours ago, oldhippy said:

The rack can you put a fine wire through the hole

Morning! Yes, the hole was clear and with a firm finger grip and twisting motion I was able to remove and clean the rack. Same for the chime stop plate. So all cleaned and ready for reassembly!

[oldhippy]

Did number 1 have a screw? 

[Martyn58]

14 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

 

Did number 1 have a screw? 

 

Yes, two screw between the two plates that stop the chimes :

14 hours ago, watchweasol said:

depending on the type ( flat spring) or(coil spring ) the movement will need stripping down.

Morning! I know the clutch mechanism in a Smiths Enfield but this is what I see on this movement … what do you think?

 

[watchweasol]

Hi   On the center wheel between the plates is the spring clutch whether it is a leaf spring or a coil I don’t fully remember I think is a leaf spring type. You will see better when it apart and be able to re tension it.

the bit shown is the center wheel shaft and canon pinion. When it’s in bits you can check both the pinion and the center wheel bushing for wear. On the other side of the plate on the center wheel is the spring clutch have a look at the drawings that I attached you will see it .

[Martyn58]

52 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

On the center wheel between the plates is the spring clutch

Hi again … the plates are back together but I’m able to get a photo of the centre wheel since the going barrel can be removed … I haven’t come across that before!

[oldhippy]

There are movements where you are able to remove the barrels without taking the movement apart. Garrard have it in there chiming movements. Elliott Westminster chime as well. Here are two more. the first is Perivale the second is a Smiths.

Edited July 16, 2023 by oldhippy

[watchweasol]

Hi from what I can see there is no spring therefore the drive is via the center cam (the one with the lobes) friction on the shaft by the canon pinion so now we are looking at either the canon pinion is slipping, the gearing has lost or damaged a tooth. even the center cam could be loose. all points to check.

[Martyn58]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

There are movements where you are able to remove the barrels

Yes … I see that on the movement with the problem. On this one I was surprised that the mainspring arbor simply dropped out of the going barrel. Hasn’t happened with the arbors of the other 2 mainspring barrels … maybe they’re just a tighter fit. 

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

center cam (the one with the lobes) friction on the shaft by the canon pinion so now we are looking at either the canon pinion is slipping,

That’s what it looks like to me. I’m almost at the point where I can put a minute hand on the movement and turn it to observe what happens. I’ll get back to you. 

[oldhippy]

If you are not sure if they can be removed tap the barrel arbor with a small mallet from the backside of the plate a mallet will prevent marking the arbor. 

[Martyn58]

26 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

tap the barrel arbor with a small mallet

Good advice thanks. I’ll have a look next time. I like to disassemble and reassemble a movement a few times until I’m confident with the way everything works. 

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

friction on the shaft by the canon pinion

Without the pallets fitted I can clearly see the going train run when I rotate the minute hand with my fingers. When I stop the going train using a finger, I can still rotate the minute hand and see the canon pinion slipping on the centre wheel arbor. 
So the big question is …. how to increase that friction on the movement with the problem?  It looks to me that the minute hand pipe is crimped onto the centre wheel arbor. 

[watchweasol]

Hi. You will have to increase the pinch on the canon pinion to get the friction so that as the center wheel rotates it moves the canon pinion.  The tension has to be enough to drive.  And there should be a gap between the center cam and the canon pinion when fully pressed home.  Remove the canon pinion and thread on a brass rod when adjusting the pinch so as not to damage the pinion.

[Martyn58]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

a gap between the center cam and the canon pinion when fully pressed home.

So do you think they are separate components?  And any suggestions for removing the canon pinion?  I’ve got hand levers for removing watch hands. I don’t think I’ve got anything that could pull the pinion off   It’s a job I’m reluctant to do without seeing someone else do it first

[watchweasol]

The pinion should lift off ok but don’t try to remove the center cam un less the bearing hole is worn and the shaft wobbles about. The canon pinion will only need a nip up as it’s on a tapered shaft just be careful and not too heavy handed, that’s why we advocate fitting it on a brass rod for adjusting and re fitting after each adjustment so as not to over do it.

[Martyn58]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

The canon pinion will only need a nip up as it’s on a tapered shaft just be careful and not too heavy handed,

Thanks for this. The movement is in the case atm but I might have an opportunity to try this on Tuesday. If not I’ll have to wait until September time. I’m not going to be here over the summer. But at least I have a plan. Thanks for your help … I’ll keep you posted.