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Pallet Lock Question


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it really doesn't matter at all because the original posting person is never ever going to come back and give us an answer. That's one of the problems of the message board people who waste our time with questions and never come back.

9 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Of course, if the posts position is not correct, it must be adjusted. But, we have no symptoms showing such fault, that’s why I don’t see a reason to advice the OP to mess there, especially if he has no experience.

problem with this quote is if the original posting person has no experience then we can't rely upon their diagnostic skills at all because they would have no experience on how to diagnose anything.

out of curiosity how many American pocket watches have you ever worked on?

 

 

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28 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

out of curiosity how many American pocket watches have you ever worked on?

In the years I have worked on thousands of watches, and small percent of them – American. But still I have worked on many of them.

May be I have to explain why is this all about …

First time when we met here on this forum, You sent me to learn how the watch works before giving people advices. As I have participated for long time in different forums, and everywhere as person who answer questions, solves problems and gives advices, I felt a little hurt. Then, I started to look threads and came to this one, I said to me ‘wow, is He really as good as He thinks’ and decided to test. But, the things got a little ugly, so now I am sorry…

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in order for me to learn from my mistakes I need exact locations and examples for instance

28 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

First time when we met here on this forum, You sent me to learn how the watch works before giving people advices.

so for this exactly where did this occur for me to understand better

29 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

As I have participated for long time in different forums, and everywhere as person who answer questions, solves problems and gives advices, I felt a little hurt.

one of the problems on the message board is typically when people come here not always but typically people are newbies. They have no prior experience so when I see that you have a low numeric count of messages I might assume that you're a newbie. I didn't realize that you were very superior to me and I'm humbled by your expertise of pointing out how stupid I am. Note this is a two-way street here of irritating each other.

31 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

I said to me ‘wow, is He really as good as He thinks’ and decided to test. But, the things got a little ugly, so now I am sorry…

no I'm not really as good as I think I am I am damn stupid.

 

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1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

I made some videos to illustrate the process of escapement locking.

First I searched for a movement in which the lever sometimes jumps back when pushed towards the other banking post, and this movement still works fine. In the first part of video, You will see that when I just push the lever by the tweezers, it happened one time that the lever jumped back to the same post. Then, after the pause, I demonstrate another way of testing the lever action: one of the tips of the tweezers pushes the lever until the escapement unlocks, but the other tip holds the lever and doesn’t let it go to the end. Then, the second tip slowly moves, letting the lever go to the other post. If when tested this way, the lever never jumps back, actually the locking is good enough.

In the next video I put the lever and the escape wheel of this movement on the depthing tool. In the beginning, You will see that the distance between the lever and the wheel is big and they just don’t interact. Then, I gradually decrease the distance and the lever begins to oscillate – first with small amplitude, then with bigger, and then, at specific distance, the locking starts to happen on every 15 teeth and in every direction of the lever movement. In my language we call this ‘critical depth’ of the escapement. Then, the correct depth, with which the couple lever/wheel should work, is just a little deeper than the critical.  Making the depth bigger than needed leads only to smaller balance amplitude, and also it affects the isochronism in a bad way. In the common met movements we don’t change the distance, but we move the pallet stones and this way we reach the same effect. As the OP asked which pallet to move, I would answer him that no matter which pallet we will move towards the wheel, the effect on the locking will be the same. That’s why we choose to move the pallet of which the rest angle is smaller,  thus reaching the effect of increasing this rest angle too.

As You can see, the banking posts do not participate in the locking process, the locking happens without their presence. They just limit the movement of the lever to where it is useful and cut the excess.

Of course, if the posts position is not correct, it must be adjusted. But, we have no symptoms showing such fault, that’s why I don’t see a reason to advice the OP to mess there, especially if he has no experience.

I'm not entirely sure what the first video is explaining?  Isn't the fork jumping back due to a mislock on one tooth ? And easing the pallet jewels onto the esc teeth could quite easily avoid that mislock, surely the speed of the jewel coming into lock affects that . Failing to mention involvement of the roller, impulse pin, fork horns, gaurdpin and safety roller looks to be missing out a lot of information, altering banking pin location changes how far the lever travels from side to side affecting all those clearances. The main reason the clearances are checked first before moving the pins. If i have this correct both the amount of sideways travel of the lever and jewel position in the fork slots affects the depth of lock but depth of lock does not affect the clearances at the balance which is why jewel positioning is made last. I think John was suggesting if the banking pins have been moved then its far easier to reposition them back to where they should be rather than moving the pallet jewels which may be in the correct postion anyway. As BOTH a short jewel depth AND a wide banking pin position Can cause light tooth locking causing a mislock. 

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

in order for me to learn from my mistakes I need exact locations and examples for instance

so for this exactly where did this occur for me to understand better

one of the problems on the message board is typically when people come here not always but typically people are newbies. They have no prior experience so when I see that you have a low numeric count of messages I might assume that you're a newbie. I didn't realize that you were very superior to me and I'm humbled by your expertise of pointing out how stupid I am. Note this is a two-way street here of irritating each other.

no I'm not really as good as I think I am I am damn stupid.

 

Oh dear, i think we need the # Forum Associate Refriending Team # otherwise known as the "FART" squad. 🤦‍♂️.  Come on peeps lets not get upset with each other, we're supposed to all be calm gentile watch folk.

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2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Oh dear, i think we need the # Forum Associate Refriending Team # otherwise known as the "FART" squad. 🤦‍♂️.  Come on peeps lets not get upset with each other, we're supposed to all be calm gentile watch folk.

Very right. Shake hands and both laugh about an annoying misunderstanding.

Frank

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By the way, till now, all the people I have argued this way with, we have made good friends after short time... As You can see I have 'sharp' character that easy catch fire. And I know this is not good, but sometimes I can't help it. But most of the time I can be calm and friendly, for reference You may ask the people from thewatchforum.co.uk.

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm not entirely sure what the first video is explaining?  Isn't the fork jumping back due to a mislock on one tooth ?...

This video presents two ways for checking the action of the lever. Though the watch works fine, the first method, which is common used, shows not good result - doubt if mislock happens. But this can be due to ricochet of the lever from the other banking pin, for example. The second method is much more reliable and using it on this movement shows good result.

Please, follow this link and look at the pictures there

http://forum.watch.ru/showthread.php?p=5674582&highlight=изготовление+одной+небольшой#post5674582

Then, considering that I have designed and made  by myself this lever, then I should know at least the basics of the escapement theory, and You will look at what I have written with more trust.

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13 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

You may ask the people from thewatchforum.co.uk.

I haven't been on that websites in a very long time and visually they have updated the look.  took me a while to find was looking for it looks like I was last there are about 2010.

 

 

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1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

By the way, till now, all the people I have argued this way with, we have made good friends after short time... As You can see I have 'sharp' character that easy catch fire. And I know this is not good, but sometimes I can't help it. But most of the time I can be calm and friendly, for reference You may ask the people from thewatchforum.co.uk.

This video presents two ways for checking the action of the lever. Though the watch works fine, the first method, which is common used, shows not good result - doubt if mislock happens. But this can be due to ricochet of the lever from the other banking pin, for example. The second method is much more reliable and using it on this movement shows good result.

Please, follow this link and look at the pictures there

http://forum.watch.ru/showthread.php?p=5674582&highlight=изготовление+одной+небольшой#post5674582

Then, considering that I have designed and made  by myself this lever, then I should know at least the basics of the escapement theory, and You will look at what I have written with more trust.

We can't really tell what is going on as the pictures are out of focus, but my guesstimation is that you are saying that you've made an escape lever from a knife blade and shaped it with a carbide drill bit, am i anywhere near ?

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48 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

as the pictures are out of focus

not all the pictures are out of focus for instance this one is focused and let me snip out something

image.png.bcab0ee3b06d77461b9755326600aed5.png

if there's any out of focus that's because were only looking at a tiny section and I find sometimes the snipping tool loses a little resolution. the reason why were looking at this particular section is where looking for the banking pins that don't exist kind of. It's been milled into the plate which means they're not adjustable. Okay creative souls conceivably might file them but typically they're not adjustable.

Now the problem with the group is everybody has their obsessions which is why we work well as a team. So for the escapement everything has to be right not just one component all of it and it has to be checked in a specific order otherwise you're wasting your time.

one of the problems on a discussion group is everybody has their obsessions which if we get around everyone's obsessions we work well as a team.

9 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

and small percent of them – American.

 

the reason I keep bringing up an American watch is that's what this discussion is about and American watches at least vintage present different challenges then Europeans although not unique challenges

image.png.3b6e45da23cd901a12ecadabb0f915be.png

as you can see banking pins are adjustable and typically on American pocket watches you have to assume that they've been adjusted. Which means they have to be put right before he can play with the jewels which also can be adjusted. so unfortunately working on a pocket watch you get stuck checking the escapement and cannot assume that anything is right without verification especially if you're having an issue.

typically with American pocket watches under the dial you'll find this or on 18 size watches it will be on the other side and British full plate watches will be on the other side. so that X marks the spot and their adjustable and yes they do get adjusted. So every single American watch you look at you have to check that they're in the right place. As they'll have all sorts of interesting consequences with worst-case the watch doesn't run at all.

image.png.2fecd7f4845572bb15c6a48909d7033b.png

 

 

 

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This type of jewej settings are nor american invetion, they originate from old english watches, but often are used in swiss watches like Omega for example. Yes, the shown banking pins are typical for american watshes, but in old english and swiss watches they are just pins that can be bent in needed direction. Bending them is normal, they are allmost never stright and came bent (which means adjusted) right after manufacturing. So, nothing different at all.

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

We can't really tell what is going on as the pictures are out of focus, but my guesstimation is that you are saying that you've made an escape lever from a knife blade and shaped it with a carbide drill bit, am i anywhere near ?

Yes You suggestion is almost right. I have shaped it with dremel and files, the carbide bit is a flying cutter for cutting the slots for the pallets.

 

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31 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

This type of jewej settings are nor american invetion, they originate from old english watches, but often are used in swiss watches like Omega for example. Yes, the shown banking pins are typical for american watshes, but in old english and swiss watches they are just pins that can be bent in needed direction. Bending them is normal, they are allmost never stright and came bent (which means adjusted) right after manufacturing. So, nothing different at all.

Yes You suggestion is almost right. I have shaped it with dremel and files, the carbide bit is a flying cutter for cutting the slots for the pallets.

 

I managed to see the pictures clearly by clicking each one separately.  You certainly have some patience. 

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Actually, I must explain that the lever that is seen in the first pictures is not original to the movement and with completely different ‘focal distance’, so I could use it only to copy the shape of ‘mustaches’. The previous person that tried to restore the movement bought a donor movement, but the lever from it didn’t fit at all, same as all the other parts. This is the broken lever on the pictures, he tried to weld it for unknown for me reason. So I had to design the lever from the beginning to the end in order to work correctly with the existing parts that were in the movement. And I managed to do it, but if needed to do it again, I will do it better. In the end of the process, I realized that due to wrong choice of entire angular movement of the lever (bigger than needed), I had to increase the slope of the impulse plains of the pallet stones. And, the lift angle of the movement at the end was calculated as 64 degr, which is quite unusual. But the escapement efficiency was good enough and amplitude almost 270 degr.

Also, this movement was missing it’s 2nd wheel, cannon pinion and hours wheel. Pictures from making of the cannon pinion and hours wheel I have shown in message #490 of the same thread.

As for the patience, if interesting, I can show many more pictures that prove it.

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On 10/23/2023 at 1:01 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Oh dear, i think we need the # Forum Associate Refriending Team # otherwise known as the "FART" squad. 🤦‍♂️.  Come on peeps lets not get upset with each other, we're supposed to all be calm gentile watch folk.

No, what we need is a Safe Zone for experts.

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