Timegrapher or microscope?

[Marc]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Yep, it would seem the word is out! The least expensive I found on eBay was this (€150). Double that and you have a new decent scope.

The asking BIN prices on eBay are laughable; I doubt that they will sell in a month of Sundays.

If you look at the sold prices (eBay.co.uk) there are 5 which sold in Feb and March this year for between £28 and £40 including shipping, so it's worth keeping an eye out for them.

[spectre6000]

OP's location may play a part in a satisfactory answer. In the US, those Russian scopes don't exist. Cheap scopes in general didn't seem to exist when I was looking. Only viable option was to be extremely patient and lucky or tolerant of less than desirable results, or buy new. The cost of entry for a new scope in the US that fits the watchmaker's list of needs is $400+. A Chinese timegrapher is much easier to purchase (both in terms of finding good deals and knowing what to get), and much cheaper.

If the two are truly considered an interchangeable buy, the money part of the equation should be called into question; why not both? 

[Canadianwatchmaker]

Hello all, new member, returning after being a member years ago. Just wanted to help, in my experience when buying new tools and trying ti figure out  what to get, I always looked at which tool I needed to continue my process and get the most results for the money. I would get the timing machine.  With all the years experience I have found in my early years a few tools that I went to the most, demagnetizer, horia tool, case opener/closer and timing machine. Notice the cleaning machine  is not on this list. 

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I believe the difference is that you can set the gain on the 1900

some of the 1000 you can set the game but typically they don't. They screen size is actually a big difference in that I don't actually have one to test but on smaller screens the rollover error for the graphical display can become interesting. We've done experiments somewhere in the message board for instance if the watches out of beat as the lines get farther and farther apart they will actually cross over in the lines will start to come together as you can have a watch that looks like it's in beats and it's not. I think it's around 4 ms approximately so to have a bigger screen that should be harder to do. There's also some additional settings that you probably never use there's some other display modes there is a much longer display mode if you're looking for problems. Basically they're almost identical but the 1900 is a little bit better so as long as the cost is a little bit more otherwise just go with the 1000 you'll still be fine.

7 hours ago, Marc said:

The 1900 also has a two colour screen, with the ticks and tocks either blue or yellow. This is useful when adjusting beat error as it allows you to see if you've gone too far.

I believe the 1000 is just a single colour.

strangely enough that conversation came up at work the other day. One of our watchmakers who works at a remote location has a 1900. And he commented that he liked the color display for adjusting the beat for that exact reason. Then yes the 1000 is only in one color but at least it's backlit. That you see one of the selling points that it was backlit versus the witschi timing machines because a lot of the early machines were not backlit and the screen is incredibly reflective of lighting making it really really difficult to photograph versus a backlit display which is much nicer.

7 hours ago, Knebo said:

I can confirm that. The 1000 only has one colour. True, that is an inconvenience when adjusting and back and forth across the 0.0ms and not knowing on which side you are. It still works just fine -- you just need a little more time to find the sweet spot. 

yes the two colors are nice but? Okay here's a screen it has lots of colors but the lines are only black-and-white and what does it cost? Well you could have a 1900+ a really decent stereo microscope and quite a bit more. The black-and-white isn't necessarily an issue but still the other watchmakers thought it was really nice

I'm also going to attach the PDF of both the 1000 and the 1900 users manuals as you can see they are quite useful. Versus the word I was thinking which was worthless well there somewhere in between. The problem with a lot of especially anything newer manuals they assume that you know how to use your timing machine. Even some of the software you can purchase the users manual is quite bleak on all of the characteristics of the software.

then in addition to the manual 1900 has additional help screens were to explain some of the other features of the machine

yes they can operate in black-and-white mode

color mode

then the other mode notice that the time to go across the screen is I think twice as long. A complaint with liquid crystal screens is it's much shorter than vintage paper tape machines so if you're looking for patterns like the line moving around it's too short. On the other hand if you have an enhanced timing machine there's other ways around this but it still might be useful

 

 

 

 

 

 

WeiShi 1000.pdf WeiShi Timegrapher 1900.pdf

[Mike78]

17 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

OP's location may play a part in a satisfactory answer. In the US, those Russian scopes don't exist. Cheap scopes in general didn't seem to exist when I was looking. Only viable option was to be extremely patient and lucky or tolerant of less than desirable results, or buy new. The cost of entry for a new scope in the US that fits the watchmaker's list of needs is $400+. A Chinese timegrapher is much easier to purchase (both in terms of finding good deals and knowing what to get), and much cheaper.

If the two are truly considered an interchangeable buy, the money part of the equation should be called into question; why not both? 

I am located in Ontario, Canada and options for scopes are limited.  My best bet is to buy a new Amscope with .5 barlow lens.  I check kijiji and facebook marketplace frequently for a used one.  I've seen a couple pop up but they were what I was looking for.  

These will be my next two purchases but at the moment I think I am leaning towards the timegrapher as the first purchase.  I seem to be managing well with a loupe so this is big factor in my decision.  From all the feedback here it is quite obvious that the timegrapher is essential.  

Also I appreciate all the feedback.  It was truly helpful.  

[spectre6000]

6 hours ago, Mike78 said:

My best bet is to buy a new Amscope with .5 barlow lens.

Amscope is a sticker company. They buy microscopes and accessories from a factory/factories in China, put stickers on them, and have a flashy but poorly organized website. There are many, many companies buying microscopes with those exact same specs from those exact same factories in China. Head over to the stereo microscope thread, go to the end, and look at some recent posts. People are finding these same models for much cheaper with other stickers (and probably sometimes no stickers) on them.

I think the creme de la creme setup is the double arm boom stand, simufocal head with the eyepiece adjustment on the head. Simufocal is the first thing to cut if you want to go cheaper, as it's not incredibly difficult to take photos through the eyepiece, you just lose video capability if that matters to you (I have yet to even try). The eyepiece adjustment on the head actually saves you money up front AND long term last I looked. The double arm boom stand is in the ultra nice to have column, because it allows you to easily and consistently get some tilt to the head with stability (so you aren't trying to see through your hand). From memory, that's about $600 at AmScope, and the best I recall seeing with a different sticker was closer to the neighborhood of $400. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

Simufocal is the first thing to cut if you want to go cheaper, as it's not incredibly difficult to take photos through the eyepiece, you just lose video capability 

You can alway add in a seperate microscope camera like this for around 30 quid. This takes single , multiple shot picures and video, perfect for recording hour disassembly walkthrough.

[GuyMontag]

Yeah, I got a simulfocus with double boom arm and camera for about $310 (before delivery) from Aliexpress. Shipping was $200 though...

[spectre6000]

I just clicked the link, and it's down to $262.30. Still a pretty killer deal.

[GuyMontag]

2 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I just clicked the link, and it's down to $262.30. Still a pretty killer deal.

I think that is the option without a camera.

[VWatchie]

On 5/12/2023 at 9:24 PM, GuyMontag said:

Yeah, I got a simulfocus with double boom arm and camera for about $310 (before delivery) from Aliexpress. Shipping was $200 though...

With shipping, to get this to where I live would cost me at least $640 and then 25 % VAT might be added, so $800, but I've been lucky(?) before with AliExpress. It would seem the Chinese have some nifty system to officially ship the stuff from the Netherlands to other EU countries to avoid the VAT.

I've been looking quite a bit at Cousins's stereo microscope offer. Anyone who got it and if so, what do you think? I already have a decent stationary scope which I use for the tricky bits like oiling correctly, but I'm still curious, and it would be nice to be able to video record movement gremlins and strange problems to get better help from you guys.

Edited May 14, 2023 by VWatchie

[tomh207]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

 

I've been looking quite a bit at Cousins's stereo microscope offer. Anyone who got it and if so, what do you think? I already have a decent stationary scope which I use for the tricky bits like oiling correctly, but I'm still curious, and it would be nice to be able to video record movement gremlins and strange problems to get better help from you guys.

I got the full cousins setup, camera, ring light, scope, Barlow lens and arm. It’s fine, pretty solid. Not got the camera working yet, the manual that came with it is not for the same camera. So will need to spend some time figuring it out to connect properly to pc and extra monitor. The whole setup is a generic white box Chinese manufactured piece. There is a short video on the cousinsuk YouTube channel.

 

Tom
 

[VWatchie]

9 hours ago, tomh207 said:

I got the full cousins setup, camera, ring light, scope, Barlow lens and arm. It’s fine, pretty solid.

Thanks!

Have you had the set long enough to be able to pinpoint any particular pros and cons?

[Karon]

When it comes to choosing between a telegrapher and a microscope for your next major purchase in watchmaking, it depends on your specific needs and preferences.

[kd8tzc]

For me, I hard a really hard time seeing all the parts, doing a good inspection, etc. The microscope really helped me with seeing better what I a, working on and significantly helped me clean my movements better. I guess the way I see it is I need to assemble the watch and be able to see all the components well before I can even get it on a timegrapher. Now, if you are doing well with all that and can see things well, then maybe the timegrapher is the way to go, but I think you need to be able to build the watch before you can adjust and fine tune it. Just my two cents which may not be worth even that much.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

adjust and fine tune it.

the timing machine is used for more than just fine tuning and adjusting it's a troubleshooting device.

It is truly amazing how watchmakers survived before microscopes?