Alternative to ETA6497 or Clone of same for starter movement

[kd8tzc]

After making parts watches out of two clones of the 6497 and not being able to get spare parts for it, is there a different starter movement to get that is similar to the one named in the title that you *can* get parts for easily?  I have been happy with the clone of the 6497 and so far, the only issues I have had are with the springs.  I'm growing tired of losing them and not being able to get replacements for them. 

I don't know if it is easy to get Seiko springs or if there is a non Swiss movement that uses the Incabloc system that is inexpensive.  I want to learn how to work on the shock settings, but right now, I am just so frustrated that you can't find springs for these end stones easily without having to buy a whole new movement.

I think someone said someplace in this forum (for another way to oil the incabloc stones) is to just remove the balance from the cock and to do that you need to unscrew a screw from the stud... I don't even see  a screw on the stud on the clone version of the 6497, so I'm not even sure that is possible.

Anyhow, just very frustrated and looking for alternatives.

[JohnR725]

16 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

Anyhow, just very frustrated and looking for alternatives.

your phrasing of alternative the main alternative hobby perhaps?

either way welcome to watch repair the world of frustrations. Everybody on this group has parts frustration problems. With literally millions of watches being made over time availability of parts for those watches can be well frustrating isn't even scratching the surface. So your experience is not unique were all frustrated with spare parts.

Then the link below the indication is that the clone doesn't use the same size  spring as the original. But it seems like by now that somebody should have the spring is available because it's a very common training movement is very common for the spring to go missing but after spending time looking for it for you I can't find a replacement spring.

then to find a watch that has parts available for everything is going to be challenging. The Swiss don't like us that means I don't want to sell a spare parts of anything that's very new getting spare parts for could be a challenge. See you want to find something that's been made in quantity that parts are available for before the Swiss decided they hated watchmakers at least independent watchmakers.

then at the second link there is a watch you get parts for unfortunately you pay a price to get the watch it's not a clone. Now you'll discover why people buy the clone watches. Now if you're lucky somebody else will come along and give you a much happier answer than I did. We all get frustrated trying to find spare parts that's just part of watch repair. Perhaps look at eBay although one of the problems with wristwatches there typically sealed up in a case which is both good and bad it's good because it keeps people out of the case it's bad because you can't see what's in the case before you cannot see the condition of the watch.

 

 

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/11199-installing-a-new-upper-incablock-spring-in-asian-6497/

http://www.julesborel.com/products/movements-eta-eta-mechanical/ETA-6497-MVT-Watch-Movement

 

 

[kd8tzc]

28 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

your phrasing of alternative the main alternative hobby perhaps?

No, not an alternative hobby.  It's just hugely frustrating that you lose a clone part and you can't get a part for it.  I get that is the same with many old watches.  To learn how to work on watches though, there has to be an alternative movement that can be used for education purposes that doesn't break the bank and parts are readily available without having to wait days again to get a new movement all because you lose one small part.  The obvious answer is "don't lose the part" and that is all what learning is about, but you ARE going to lose some things when you first start out.

I'd rather buy a different movement (if there is one) that is inexpensive, and good to learn on where I can buy some of those extra parts when I buy that movement.  Then I can lose that part, and have a few spares so I can continue to keep learning and not have to wait days for the replacement.

[tomh207]

Maybe somewhere like this?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/swissmadetime?_trkparms=folent%3Aswissmadetime|folenttp%3A1&_trksid=p3542580.m47492.l74602

if you want parts I think you would be more likely to find them for Sellita/Soprod/STP movements than Chinese, but they are an order of magnitude more expensive.

 

Tom

[kd8tzc]

@tomh207 the Sellita movement is a great idea.  It's less than the ETA6497, and would more than likely have parts that can be found.  It will be smaller to some extent.  I'll have to see if I can find the tech sheet for the SW210-1 and see what parts are out there for it before I go any further.

[tomh207]

SW200 is where I would start, it is basically an ETA2824 with minor changes if this is the route you decide on. Plenty of information here for that movement.

 

Tom

[kd8tzc]

Do you know what end stones and shock springs it would need?  I don't see an actual part number on the tech sheet.  Trying to find a tech sheet for the ETA 2824 now to see if it has more info.

 

[tomh207]

I don’t have that, but being a Swiss movement you are less likely to either break or lose the shock spring 

 

only my opinion, YMMV.

 

Tom

[kd8tzc]

23 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

you are less likely to either break or lose the shock spring

Tom, do you know if the shock spring can come out the middle where the stones are?  The reason I ask is I had one shock spring come out of the close when I used Rodico to remove the end stone and it stuck to the spring and took it with it.  I lost it later in trying to get it back into the setting (a skill I need to master).

[tomh207]

Sorry learning myself, however even the cheapest Swiss or Japanese movements are better for that in every way. The Swiss movements especially would likely use standard parts that would be interchangeable.

 

Tom

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

you ARE going to lose some things when you first start out.

the unfortunate reality of watch repair is everybody has to deal with losing parts I lost something yesterday one Meadow hatted the next minute I did not and it has not surfaced as of yet. Or their broken parts and if you want to fix the watch they have to be replaced.

 

2 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

I'll have to see if I can find the tech sheet for the

http://www.sellita.com/index.php/en/movements

 

2 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

I don't see an actual part number on the tech sheet

let's take a trip let's go someplace online let's look at the first link

so at our first destination you'll see a reference to the case number if you enter the case number and properly confined casing parts such as Seiko. I almost never actually look at that I scroll to the bottom where you find categories that will be the next link

http://cgi.julesborel.com/

so our next link is let's look up Sellita which unfortunately brings up a problem look at all those watch manufacturers and then you look at all the subcategories and then we get to this company and almost nothing but fortunately you're picking a 200 series.

because as you can see there are almost no parts listing just a few other different movements and none of the new stuff

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?begin=SEL_&end=SEL_&label=Calibres_Manufactured_by_SELLITA

one of the problems we face is in the early days when there were way way way more watchmakers their way more material houses there were way more people doing cross referencing of parts. As the number of everything decreases the ability to find parts and cross-references also decreases. But this website is by no means the only online site where you can cross reference parts. Is just one of the most convenient that I like to use

now where is our final destination? Well you set a specific watch looks like they are both the 200 and the 200 – one.

3 hours ago, tomh207 said:

SW200

so our final destination almost are the parts for the SW 200..

oh dear this is going to be a problem for you. We may have to rethink the watch you start with because there's a problem now I have to go get the actual tech sheet for the 200 to see if it is a problem or not.

now just to remind you the reason why this is a long message and you'd not getting a quick fast answer is because everybody has to go through the steps if they want to find stuff there is no easy fast solution. Now back to the problem image attached that's what happens when you look for the tech sheet for the SW 200 basically a lump everything together in the 200 series. then there's the other strange problem even though we have a parts listing the 200 series down below a pathway to 200 does not exist only to dash one exists? At least that's the tech sheet of looking at I will assume that all the parts interchange which they may or may not.

okay the official tech sheet doesn't solve the problem I'm having from the parts listing.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEL_SW200

right about now I'm questioning my sanity of why am I doing this message in a way and is anyone even going to read it? Okay so what's the problem I'm specifically looking for a spring to hold in the balance jewel assembly when you look at the parts listing above they list more than one type and the tech sheet only shows the one type?

Oh and thinking about parts issues one of the problems that comes up is is a conceivable that this watch had variations? The often find out Swiss watches where the lower grade will use a different type of balance shock protection and that means differing types of spring is depending upon which watch you have. If you watch it was manufactured over a long time span it may have started with no protection and moved through various ones depending on pricing etc. you can end up with some vintage watches that have lots of variations. Then yes that makes it really hard and confusing to find parts as I pointed out everybody has parts problems

now back to the insanity okay we have this link is for the spring that by the way you shouldn't lose on this watch did you look at the link that I gave prior probably not. If you look at the link you scroll to the bottom there is a picture that explains why the Chinese Springs fallout and the Swiss typically do not. Not that they won't occasionally come out typically the lower ones will and then their real pain to get back in sometimes it's easier just to pop the entire assembly out typically the upper ones will not come out unless you break it off you have to try really hard to get it to come out

now back to the link we have a spring number but what kind of a spring number? we get a number that has number 400 that's a category number it that tells us that it's a spring  but I'll see if I can find it image to make sure and the other is the actual number. This is a place where newbies will have confusion whenever looking up some part and parts have identification numbers usually to be printed on the package is packages of watch parts are really tiny so they will have a number that's equivalent to like insisting balance staff they will have a number which tells you that the balance staff but you need the second number to tell you which watch it's for. then conveniently the book I'm looking at does not list with the 400 series this not very helpful.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=X\ZD_ETh

400/811S

 UPPER/LOWER SHOCK SPRING, INCA

oh and now we get to the next problem where my enthusiasm for doing this question is now coming to an end went to get a part number you go to a slightly different webpage from this company and you can look up the part and see what it costs and whether it even still exists except apparently the part doesn't exist oh dear.

http://www.julesborel.com/home?search=400%2F811S

 then I go back to the tech sheet and the spring isn't listed the entire jewel assemblies listed. Budget also noticed a look at some of the parts they have exact part numbers and some of them say variations it's back to we have variations. Now if I absolutely needed this pars I would just call up my local material house and asked Debbie here's my parts number and not offload the responsibility of finding the part on my local material house not very helpful for you though.

not looking like a happy ending at all okay worst-case you can purchase this and you will have to disassemble if it's the upper one to get the spring out.

http://www.julesborel.com/products/Sellia/SEL-SW200-1-MVT-Sellita-Watch-Movement

feeling frustrated I noticed they give a stem number yes the search system does work you get a new stem

http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.25048/.f

one of the problems were having is in order to find the parts you need a part number and order have a part number somebody asked to list the part number yes that seems really obvious of the part number isn't listed in the tech sheet than the material houses probably won't have the part number because where would they get a part number except. A lot of the problems were facing is in the old days they used to have cross reference books plus the particular balance spring assembly they use the list those spring is on the website at least if it was made with in the time span that the book existed or the cross reference existed. So a lot of the stuff were working with is old

3 hours ago, tomh207 said:

SW200 is where I would start, it is basically an ETA2824 with minor changes

my distraction has almost come to an end yes I'm just doing this to distract myself. Because typically if anything gets this long no one's ever going to read this anyway. So looks like Tom was correct if you Google the right phrase you come the right page eventually. So he can get entire upper assembly that includes your spring yes I know you wanted the spring only. Then as I pointed out some more up above on the Swiss version you cannot just pop the spring and you'll have to disassemble the jewel assembly to get to the spring another crisis possibly another tool. But it does give us a clue of something. One week ago back to one of the websites up above look up cross reference of parts and get an exact part number or

https://www.ofrei.com/page1765.html

then there website used to be a way more friendly but we can eventually get there hopefully

now at the link below you'll see pretty pictures of stuff you want to scroll down until you get to a choice.your choice at the very end is product catalog the second item you can click the plus on the far right-hand side of your lucky you get to the product catalog. if you look around long enough will stumble  across an image which and is going to attach. Then of course you can look at the cross-references notice they don't cross reference the watch your looking for. Maybe that means the part doesn't actually exist or we get stuck with crappy sites that make it hard to look up stuff .

It's amazing the technical data you can accumulate with time getting tired of searching I'm just attaching a PDF page out of their catalog. Yes just like the website where the catalog is fragmented as opposed to one Log in one place their PDFs of the separate sections is now attached. So I should a given you enough information to find your spring. Is it looks like it is a standard and a spring which means you can go back to the website look up the movement and find the spring of actually yourself but you're not going to lose it you're probably just going to break the spring because as I mentioned before the Swiss version the spring does not fall out. At least not typically will have to try really hard

https://www.incabloc.ch/en/shock-absorbers/

 

 

 

1252_Incabloc By Factory - Eta.pdf

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

the unfortunate reality of watch repair is everybody has to deal with losing parts I lost something yesterday one Meadow hatted the next minute I did not and it has not surfaced as of yet. Or their broken parts and if you want to fix the watch they have to be replaced.

 

http://www.sellita.com/index.php/en/movements

 

let's take a trip let's go someplace online let's look at the first link

so at our first destination you'll see a reference to the case number if you enter the case number and properly confined casing parts such as Seiko. I almost never actually look at that I scroll to the bottom where you find categories that will be the next link

http://cgi.julesborel.com/

so our next link is let's look up Sellita which unfortunately brings up a problem look at all those watch manufacturers and then you look at all the subcategories and then we get to this company and almost nothing but fortunately you're picking a 200 series.

because as you can see there are almost no parts listing just a few other different movements and none of the new stuff

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?begin=SEL_&end=SEL_&label=Calibres_Manufactured_by_SELLITA

one of the problems we face is in the early days when there were way way way more watchmakers their way more material houses there were way more people doing cross referencing of parts. As the number of everything decreases the ability to find parts and cross-references also decreases. But this website is by no means the only online site where you can cross reference parts. Is just one of the most convenient that I like to use

now where is our final destination? Well you set a specific watch looks like they are both the 200 and the 200 – one.

so our final destination almost are the parts for the SW 200..

oh dear this is going to be a problem for you. We may have to rethink the watch you start with because there's a problem now I have to go get the actual tech sheet for the 200 to see if it is a problem or not.

now just to remind you the reason why this is a long message and you'd not getting a quick fast answer is because everybody has to go through the steps if they want to find stuff there is no easy fast solution. Now back to the problem image attached that's what happens when you look for the tech sheet for the SW 200 basically a lump everything together in the 200 series. then there's the other strange problem even though we have a parts listing the 200 series down below a pathway to 200 does not exist only to dash one exists? At least that's the tech sheet of looking at I will assume that all the parts interchange which they may or may not.

okay the official tech sheet doesn't solve the problem I'm having from the parts listing.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEL_SW200

right about now I'm questioning my sanity of why am I doing this message in a way and is anyone even going to read it? Okay so what's the problem I'm specifically looking for a spring to hold in the balance jewel assembly when you look at the parts listing above they list more than one type and the tech sheet only shows the one type?

Oh and thinking about parts issues one of the problems that comes up is is a conceivable that this watch had variations? The often find out Swiss watches where the lower grade will use a different type of balance shock protection and that means differing types of spring is depending upon which watch you have. If you watch it was manufactured over a long time span it may have started with no protection and moved through various ones depending on pricing etc. you can end up with some vintage watches that have lots of variations. Then yes that makes it really hard and confusing to find parts as I pointed out everybody has parts problems

now back to the insanity okay we have this link is for the spring that by the way you shouldn't lose on this watch did you look at the link that I gave prior probably not. If you look at the link you scroll to the bottom there is a picture that explains why the Chinese Springs fallout and the Swiss typically do not. Not that they won't occasionally come out typically the lower ones will and then their real pain to get back in sometimes it's easier just to pop the entire assembly out typically the upper ones will not come out unless you break it off you have to try really hard to get it to come out

now back to the link we have a spring number but what kind of a spring number? we get a number that has number 400 that's a category number it that tells us that it's a spring  but I'll see if I can find it image to make sure and the other is the actual number. This is a place where newbies will have confusion whenever looking up some part and parts have identification numbers usually to be printed on the package is packages of watch parts are really tiny so they will have a number that's equivalent to like insisting balance staff they will have a number which tells you that the balance staff but you need the second number to tell you which watch it's for. then conveniently the book I'm looking at does not list with the 400 series this not very helpful.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=X\ZD_ETh

400/811S

 UPPER/LOWER SHOCK SPRING, INCA

oh and now we get to the next problem where my enthusiasm for doing this question is now coming to an end went to get a part number you go to a slightly different webpage from this company and you can look up the part and see what it costs and whether it even still exists except apparently the part doesn't exist oh dear.

http://www.julesborel.com/home?search=400%2F811S

 then I go back to the tech sheet and the spring isn't listed the entire jewel assemblies listed. Budget also noticed a look at some of the parts they have exact part numbers and some of them say variations it's back to we have variations. Now if I absolutely needed this pars I would just call up my local material house and asked Debbie here's my parts number and not offload the responsibility of finding the part on my local material house not very helpful for you though.

not looking like a happy ending at all okay worst-case you can purchase this and you will have to disassemble if it's the upper one to get the spring out.

http://www.julesborel.com/products/Sellia/SEL-SW200-1-MVT-Sellita-Watch-Movement

feeling frustrated I noticed they give a stem number yes the search system does work you get a new stem

http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.25048/.f

one of the problems were having is in order to find the parts you need a part number and order have a part number somebody asked to list the part number yes that seems really obvious of the part number isn't listed in the tech sheet than the material houses probably won't have the part number because where would they get a part number except. A lot of the problems were facing is in the old days they used to have cross reference books plus the particular balance spring assembly they use the list those spring is on the website at least if it was made with in the time span that the book existed or the cross reference existed. So a lot of the stuff were working with is old

my distraction has almost come to an end yes I'm just doing this to distract myself. Because typically if anything gets this long no one's ever going to read this anyway. So looks like Tom was correct if you Google the right phrase you come the right page eventually. So he can get entire upper assembly that includes your spring yes I know you wanted the spring only. Then as I pointed out some more up above on the Swiss version you cannot just pop the spring and you'll have to disassemble the jewel assembly to get to the spring another crisis possibly another tool. But it does give us a clue of something. One week ago back to one of the websites up above look up cross reference of parts and get an exact part number or

https://www.ofrei.com/page1765.html

then there website used to be a way more friendly but we can eventually get there hopefully

now at the link below you'll see pretty pictures of stuff you want to scroll down until you get to a choice.your choice at the very end is product catalog the second item you can click the plus on the far right-hand side of your lucky you get to the product catalog. if you look around long enough will stumble  across an image which and is going to attach. Then of course you can look at the cross-references notice they don't cross reference the watch your looking for. Maybe that means the part doesn't actually exist or we get stuck with crappy sites that make it hard to look up stuff .

It's amazing the technical data you can accumulate with time getting tired of searching I'm just attaching a PDF page out of their catalog. Yes just like the website where the catalog is fragmented as opposed to one Log in one place their PDFs of the separate sections is now attached. So I should a given you enough information to find your spring. Is it looks like it is a standard and a spring which means you can go back to the website look up the movement and find the spring of actually yourself but you're not going to lose it you're probably just going to break the spring because as I mentioned before the Swiss version the spring does not fall out. At least not typically will have to try really hard

https://www.incabloc.ch/en/shock-absorbers/

 

 

 

1252_Incabloc By Factory - Eta.pdf 2.76 MB · 0 downloads

I think a round of applause is due for our John .  He stuck with it to get an answer and hopefully anyone else reading did also. He's worth every penny in my opinion, oh just a minute let me think ( yes i am taking the pee but ever so slightly ). John doesn't actually get paid for his amazing teaching input or any other pro that helps us out for that matter. We all appreciate you very much ❤ ( no I'm not pissed  )

[kd8tzc]

@JohnR725, first off, thank you for that very long and detailed post.  That actually is a lot to digest, and it will take me some time to do so.  It gives me a good understanding of some of the things that I need to understand in sourcing a part.  I can't say I fully understand what you all posted, but I will have to reread it a few times to make some sense of it all.

Secondly, at  one point in that lengthy post, you had asked if I had actually read one of your posts about the Swiss Incabloc and how it is different than the Asian one.  Yes, I actually read all of your posts when you reply to me.  Again, I don't fully understand all the time, but that will come with time.  In one of your posts you mentioned that there had been a disillusion about the Asian shock and the Swiss one, and I did find that discussion, and you had some more pictures on that one as well.  I also found it helpful on how to install the spring with the picture you drew with the 45 degree angle to the channel.

Thank you again for your patience and help in helping me (and others) to learn about watch making.  You have more knowledge than I will ever have, I'm sure, and I greatly appreciate everyone who has been helping me to enter this sometimes very scary world... for me it will more than likely never be a career, but something that I can hopefully do to as a hobby for enjoyment and relaxation (is that even possible to be relaxed when working on a watch?)

Thank you again!

[RichardHarris123]

A round of applause for @JohnR725indeed.  We need to accept that some things are easy, the balance staff is broken, something's like finding parts, can be nearly impossible. 

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

That actually is a lot to digest, and it will take me some time to do so. 

in watch repair I sometimes make a reference that it's similar to learning to become a doctor. I have several reasons for this each watch is like a patient they're all unique. Yes watches can all be similar the same as people can be similar but each one does tend to be unique.

Then ever heard the phrase that doctors are in a practice or their practicing? One of my friends was annoyed he wanted to have a doctor that was in the game. in the comparison to a sporting event you to practice for the big game you do the game and then you move on to the next game. But doctors are continuously practicing to certain degree there is no big game every day there practicing is basically the game. Were doing the same thing every day your practicing every day you're getting better. It's a continuous game and like becoming a doctor it can be a very long term game. For instance I don't think there's any experts in watch repair they're just people that are better than others. We've had way way way more time to practice.

so no I'm not expecting you to instantaneously absorb all the knowledge. Certainly not the very beginning when you're still trying to grasp what the heck watch repair even is or is not. Yes it can be as fun as some of the YouTube videos show it's just unfortunate they don't show the background of what it took to get to the fun video. All the projects that are waiting because they don't have parts or the watch isn't going to run or something else.

then I was thinking of something but should I post it here or go back the original discussion. One of the annoying problems that happens is discussions that change direction or as I like to call them get hijacked. It's also why titles are very important because people get the emails or people who come to the discussion groups will go through your titles and if the title isn't right discussions may not actually even occur or they might just slide off into the horizon because you changed the subject. So hijacked the discussion or go back to the beginning that started this? Oh and yes I already kind of hijacked the discussion anyway as I went off on finding parts that wasn't really what sort of discussion was maybea

 

then for those unaware of why this discussion takes place it's because of this discussion. I need to add something to the discussion found the link below I could put it here but I think I'll put it there because it would reflect the title of the discussion as soon as I do a little more research to in case anyone is curious about why this discussion exists it's because of the discussion at the link below or perhaps just a general question of

 

 

[VWatchie]

On 4/11/2023 at 2:18 PM, JohnR725 said:

either way welcome to watch repair the world of frustrations

Yes, I sometimes wonder why I torture myself