What to do about main spring lubrication?

[gpraceman]

I bought a new Seagull ST3600 movement (ETA 6497 clone) as my first project.  I disassembled it and saw no obvious signs of lubrication anywhere, including with the main spring.  I would think that I would see some visible signs of oil if it had actually been lubricated.  I haven't removed the main spring from the barrel as I don't have main spring winders to be able to lubricate it properly and reinstall it.  I will get some winders at some point down the line.  Should I just put some dabs of oil on the top of the spring and then snap the lid back on and call it good?  I do have some Moebius 8200.

Edited March 15, 2023 by gpraceman

[Klassiker]

That's what I would do. There's certainly no harm in it if the inside of the barrel is clean and dry.

[oldhippy]

Yes do that and don't forget around the arbor as well. 

[JohnR725]

Mainsprings are always an interesting thing. Modern white ones are supposed to be prelubricated. They either have some sort of magical transparent lubrication possibly Teflon or they're made out of some sort of interesting steel that doesn't need lubrication. At least that's what the packages indicates prelubricated no lubrication required. But a few small drops of 8200 Isn't going to hurt. 

Then it depends upon whose literature you look at as far as what you do with the arbor. I like to use 9504 which is a grease. The Swiss like HP 1300 which is a heavy oil. So your choice heavy oil or grease but I would definitely put something on the arbor.

[gpraceman]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Mainsprings are always an interesting thing. Modern white ones are supposed to be prelubricated. They either have some sort of magical transparent lubrication possibly Teflon or they're made out of some sort of interesting steel that doesn't need lubrication. At least that's what the packages indicates prelubricated no lubrication required. But a few small drops of 8200 Isn't going to hurt. 

Then it depends upon whose literature you look at as far as what you do with the arbor. I like to use 9504 which is a grease. The Swiss like HP 1300 which is a heavy oil. So your choice heavy oil or grease but I would definitely put something on the arbor.

A few dabs of 8200 on top of the main spring is the current plan.  I have 9504 and HP 1300 available to use for the arbor.  Seems like most people use HP 1300, at least in the myriad of restoration videos that I have watched.

[JohnR725]

56 minutes ago, gpraceman said:

Seems like most people use HP 1300, at least in the myriad of restoration videos that I have watched.

Lubrication is always an interesting subject where if you corner people who don't know any better They will always tell you do with the manufacturer says. Specifically the manufacture of the watch not the manufacture of the lubrication. I do have to clarify that because the recent discussions somewhere else that was pointed out to me. In my argument of if the manufacture the lubrication recommends different than the manufacture of the watch who should we follow? Oh then there's the other little problem to manufacture the watch doesn't always specify everything. Some companies have supplemental documentation for lubrication and cleaning which may have additional things of why they're doing whatever it is are doing although usually they don't explain why but still be additional things that you may not have in the technical documentation.

Then in real life it doesn't really matter what you do but I do find horological lubrication interesting. That means I'm going to give you an interesting answer not the standard one the following the manufacture.

14 hours ago, gpraceman said:

(ETA 6497 clone)

Then technically it isn't exactly a 6497. Just to clarify yes it is a clone but it is a clone of what exactly? The watches been around for a very long time it's a very popular watch it's a very nice watch to learn with for instance which is why I always recommend it. I have a couple of links below originally it was just call the 6497 and if you're looking for them you just use 6497 or 6498 and you'll be fine. But technically now it's called  either a 6497-1 or 6497-2.  Then the technical communications which are the service sheets will be more or less identical except some minor parts differences because the original one runs at 18,000 beats per hour it has a specific running time and the second version is running at a faster frequency with a different mainspring barrel and some minor gear change to accommodate the faster frequency. But as far as servicing goes both technical things will look identical.

Now we get to the amusing problem of lubrication and the modern technical communication. You will notice that it's a barrel complete so there's no recommendation on lubricating the mainspring. Which typically they do not as I said there supposed to be prelubricated or don't need lubrication which is why there is no lubrication on the mainspring. In a barrel complete brand-new from the factory it's shipped dry all you would need to do is put HP 1300 on the arbor as that's what specified.

Then the technical communications notice that they're telling you exactly what I just said apply HP 1300 on the arbor for both the barrel and the main plate. But notice the image I've also attached from the technical communication with the recommended oil but what's that funny symbol down below and all that fine print saying to you? It's telling you you're supposed to use epilam on just about everything especially if you're using HP 1300 as a keeps it from spreading.

This is where you'll find the interesting discussion of Grease versus heavy oil and technical communications today that are recommending Apple lambing basically the entire watch almost to keep all the oils from spreading all over the place. But who can afford all that epilam and yes I've talked the people work in the Swatch group they go through a lot of it and yes it's extremely expensive but were not Swatch group and we don't have deep pockets.

Oh and as you're starting out at like to make a recommendation. You should keep a journal of the watches are doing and especially if you a change of mine down the road on lubrication's or you just want to know that your lubrication choices were right. In other words if you keep a journal let you service the watch today and you checked on the watch in the future. This is where timing machine is nice in other words I service the watch today fully wound up it's doing this 24 hours later it's doing this is it within manufacturers specifications? Know your learning it doesn't have to be perfect it would be nice if it was running though. But it's always nice to look at your watches weeks months years later just to see if what you did seems to be right is the watch still running years from now.

Oh and in case you're curious Swatch group if they were to service the mainspring barrel which typically they don't they just replace it. But if they did they epilam the barrel and the arbor. They just wipe the mainspring down with a clean cloth they do not use solvents and they do not lubricate the mainspring itself.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&ETA_6497_1

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Unitas_6497

 

CT_6497-2_FDE_482448_13.pdf CT_6497-1_FDE_482160_11.pdf

[canthus]

I remember reading somewhere a hypothesis that the faces of the mainspring coils simply roll on each other without any relative movement, and therefore there is no friction involved. And following that there is no need to lubricate the interleaf areas.  Sure this will open up some debate!!!!

Therefore the only likely friction areas are the spring edges if they contact the barrel lid and base (obviously also the walls for an auto wind), and the arbour contacts with the lid and base.

Maybe lube was applied to the leaves more for corrosion prevention than friction?  This may be more pertinent to older springs.  I also understand that dry lubes (teflon etc) are very difficult to remove and often need mechanical means so to do. So cleaning them in place or out of the barrel in typical watch cleaning media would not remove them.  Think of the non-stick frying pan!

Just my thoughts on the topic.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, canthus said:

Maybe lube was applied to the leaves more for corrosion prevention than friction?  This may be more pertinent to older springs.

The Elgin watch company has an interesting document on basically mainspring myths. Like for instance mainsprings don't break and thunderstorms in a variety of other things that once were thought to happen. Because the old steel mainsprings tended to be I'm in the use the word temperamental. In other words you would have mainsprings that we just shatter I had a mainspring that shattered it came out a bunch of little pieces

But at the track down my document but basically they talked about the terminology might not be quite right but micro fractures in the steels and it's why it's important not to touch the blued steel Springs because the acid or chemicals in your hands I think cause a corrosion and that's part of the problem. So I think yes definitely a blued steel Springs some form of lubrication just to keep anything resembling rust or corrosion would be good.

1 hour ago, canthus said:

mainspring coils simply roll on each other without any relative movement,

Then the only time the quills really touches when they're either fully wound up or basically fully unwound. In between time there kinda floating like a weird hairspring only connected by the ends. That ideally they shouldn't really be rubbing on the lid or the barrel itself unless of course distorted by improper insertion where you get a cone shape then you're going to have a problem.

Oh and then the other interesting thing is in modern schools they teach the students to put lubrication on the mainspring. Which of course goes against the teaching of Swatch group who says not to put lubrication on the mainspring.

Then if you have old organic lubricants on your mainspring sticky in particular that's definitely an issue. Or if the lubrication you apply is to sticky all by itself even fresh I also think that will be an issue.

Bots still a little 8200 isn't going to probably hurt but probably isn't needed either express if it's a modern spring.