Hairspring replacement

[Tottom]

I have a square woman’s Orvin watch from the 40s that’s hairspring has tangled and broken in between two of the gears. I bought a (for parts) Orvin but it’s hairspring is bent into a mess.

so now I’m hoping to find a replacement but don’t know where to turn, what size to get or the right strength to buy. Any help or information would be much appreciated.

thanks in advance.

[grsnovi]

Do you have a photo of this watch? Or the movement out of the case? There are usually offers of "lot" quantities of movements available on eBay. I picked up a couple of lots so that I could have some to practice on. I've never really dug into them to see what exactly I have - if I knew what you were looking for I could check what I have. Maybe there's one in the pile?

[Tottom]

Having looked into it a bit Orvin used the same movement for all of the same size watches for many years. I have one that is in much worse condition as noted (for parts) that is ten years younger. But they do upgrade it to 17 jewels from 7 apparently.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Tottom
Forgot something

[JohnR725]

what you are looking for is a balance complete not a hairspring.

usually under the balance wheel and or sometimes on the dial side might give us a clue of who actually made the movement that would expand considerably choices of balance completes as opposed to just purchasing from one company then looking at the import code we get this

SOX
Cortbert, Orvin Watch Co., Tradition

yes the three letters usually found in the balance bridge tell us who imported the watch in the US the problem is it still doesn't tell us who actually made the movement

 

9 hours ago, Tottom said:

Having looked into it a bit Orvin used the same movement for all of the same size watches for many years. I have one that is in much worse condition as noted (for parts) that is ten years younger. But they do upgrade it to 17 jewels from 7 apparently.

what they probably did was use the same size movement not the same movement. So for looking for parts we need to figure out who made the movement that you need the replacement balance complete for. otherwise finding a replacement movement would be a better option two is probably cheaper to get a replacement movement on eBay that would be to get a balance completes.

[Nucejoe]

See P190 stamped on your movement, thats its caliber ( Peseux 190 ), unfortunately  Dr ranfft has not listed  P190 on his website, he usually list all variants to a base caliber as well and I do not know the caliber p190 is based on, but ranfft site is where you find all vaiant calibers to your movement.

 As said easiest aproach to fixing your watch is to find a ready made balance complete. 

Hopefully soon, you will have acquired the knowledge to build your complete balance, perferably out of a hairspring of right CGS ( strength)  and the balance at hand.

Theoretically a balance can produce a desired bph ( rate ) with any hairpsring,  but there are parameters that factor in  so narrowing down the choice of the right spring, available space in the movement for balance for one, stability of the beat rate on wrist and more, traditionally however the size of the movement has been adapted as a bench mark for its oscilator among other design parameters.

Back in the days, before ready made balance completes were marketted,  repairers had to match balance and hairsprings, in their shops. 

Regds

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Nucejoe

[Tottom]

The only marks I see are the ones in the picture. I looked at the back of the metal plates, the gears themselves, under the balance, under the winding gears, the back of the face and inside the cover. None of them have any marks or writing. The one with the hairspring that was cut by a gear is attached one part on the balance and the other to a metal plate, not sure what it’s called.

 

Also I don’t know Dr ranfft

[Nucejoe]

This a screw balance can be adjusted to match a hairspring of the right CGS .

2 hours ago, Tottom said:

Also I don’t know Dr ranfft

He is a goog guy. 

Dr ranfft will know you anytime thereafter you visit his website.

[Tottom]

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Dr ranfft website?

how does someone with no information determine the appropriate CGS strength?

 

 I do see something on this site: https://expertswatches.com/products/peseux-320-part-445-setting-lever-spring-10-1-2-watch-movement-170-180-190-200

Apparently this has come up here before: 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Tottom
New information

[mikepilk]

27 minutes ago, Tottom said:

how does someone with no information determine the appropriate CGS strength?

 

 I do see something on this site: https://expertswatches.com/products/peseux-320-part-445-setting-lever-spring-10-1-2-watch-movement-170-180-190-200

As mentioned by JohnR725 - you need to find a complete balance. The ability to make you own hairspring takes a lot of skill and experience.

If you search Cousins for Peseux 190 they have a complete balance for the shock protected version, but not yours :

If you search ebay, you can find complete balances, and hairsprings (the Peseux 190 has common parts to the 170). The complete balance is the same price as the hairspring. Make sure you get the non-Inca version, Renata Part #279

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by mikepilk

[Nucejoe]

 

Google for Dr ranfft site,

  keywords :        Dr ranfft   caliber   ETA   peseux  bidfun

 In regard to  building your balance complete,  just that you know can be done is a good start, if interested , your interest will lead you to acquire the skill. 

Good luck pal.

[Tottom]

thank you all. I will look use the search terms on eBay and hopefully get a balance complete that will work. But I will also start fiddling with making one myself to home my skills. I will choose a watch that is already working and easier to find parts for though so I can compare my work with it.

[Nucejoe]

 

 

Tottom, your source for determining CGS No .

Apparently the only such source in existance.

Rgds

[Tottom]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 

 

Tottom, your source for determining CGS No .

Apparently the only such source in existance.

Rgds

Now I just need to know what a triple apostrophe means, to brush up on my French and if the comma is meant to be a decimal. But actually this is a great help thank you.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 

 

Tottom, your source for determining CGS No .

Apparently the only such source in existance.

Rgds

Thanks Nucejoe. This chart is really helpful. I was and still am expecting something more complicated than this. The company British precision springs (speedographrichfield) are a source for hairsprings that will sell mutiples of ten. I'm just having a little trouble relating your chart to their lists though. Their cgs nos. are much lower but i am not entirely sure yet if this is because of a very large choice of torque ranges. Also I'm a little confused as to your chart reference no of spirals. I'm  guessing at hairspring coils, but doesnt seem right as at 12 lignes the chart is quoting 30+ coils which is far too many. Also the term "ancien" any idea what this relates to ?  Tia.

16 minutes ago, Tottom said:

Now I just need to know what a triple apostrophe means, to brush up on my French and if the comma is meant to be a decimal. But actually this is a great help thank you.

Haha. We both looking at this. The triple apostrophe denotes the measurement of a movement ( linges) it equates to just over 2mm. Yep the comma is a decimal point.  Ancien is ancient, but not sure how this relates to the hairspring size.  I also have some questions   ? ?  John , Nicklesilver,  Frank .

[JohnR725]

15 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ancien is ancient,

I suppose it depends upon your chart ancient could translate to old style. it probably means that before CGS there was another numbering system and that's it.

 

21 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Also I'm a little confused as to your chart reference no of spirals. I'm  guessing at hairspring coils,

I think you need to brush up on your French or get an English translation chart. I think I have a French dictionary around here somewhere I even have a horological dictionary in about four different languages. but may be a different chart might help.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I suppose it depends upon your chart ancient could translate to old style. it probably means that before CGS there was another numbering system and that's it.

 

I think you need to brush up on your French or get an English translation chart. I think I have a French dictionary around here somewhere I even have a horological dictionary in about four different languages. but may be a different chart might help.

John to the rescue thanks John That's cleared up the confusion for me. Unfortunately languages are not my strong point but guessing is today. I think i need my first strong cup of coffee before i engage my brain any further. 

[Tottom]

Just got back from a trip and these are the measurements of the watch movement is 25.9mm, the balance is 9.0mm and the mainspring in its can is 10.9. So if I’m reading it right the CGS should be 0.60.

So I’m looking for a non-Inca version, Renata Part #279 Peseux 10.9 190 or 170 complete balance with a spring number CGS 0.60

If I’m wrong let me know, otherwise I’ll search Cousins to see if they get one in stock, a few other places and eBay.

thank you all very much.