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AS5206 - hairspring acting as if magentized, despite demagentizing


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This AS 5206 from the Jules Jurgenson is going to be the death of me. I've got it back together, and it's running very poorly. I noticed the hairpspring keeps bunching up when running.

It looks good off the movement, but when I push the coils together they stay stuck. I demagnetized a few times with my Elma antimag, but no change.

I've already cleaned it in lighter fluid/naptha twice, but I can't come up with any other ideas besides "dirty hairspring" and "demagnetized."

Do I need to get a better cleaner? How do I know whether the problem is magnetism or a dirty hairspring?

Adding a couple photos at rest, and after giving the coils a little push.

374418528_spring1.thumb.png.e951d3712e465b27371cb188e8a0be71.png

spring2.thumb.png.958c5439ab255aa6f66bda46d5d75f1b.png

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Are you rinsing it after cleaning in lighter fluid? If not there may be residue. Try rinsing with 99% Isopropyl alcohol, and dry it with gentle heat,  with the parts in a basket you can use a hairdryer.  A puffer works, too, if you have one.  Fluid can get trapped between the coils and take forever to evaporate,  but I'm not seeing that in your picture. 

 

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3 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

lighter fluid/naptha twice

 

3 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Do I need to get a better cleaner? How do I know whether the problem is magnetism or a dirty hairspring?

 

2 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

I suppose it's time to spring for proper cleaning and rinsing fluids.

Yes a better cleaning procedure I think is in order. Did you know you can actually order or at least it's listed Amazon will let you buy cleaning fluids from them with free shipping. As of you don't want to do business with the material houses in this country you can buy it from there. Then yes I know a gallon will last you well almost forever the cleaning fluid will probably go bad before you use it all up at least that's what happened to my first gallon. But the rinse will last basically forever.

Then they actually do make as someone else pointed out above special cleaner for hairsprings. It's a horrible smelling substance but it does seem do a really nice job of removing sticky things from watch parts. So I use it for spot cleaning stuff and the hairspring

then for detecting magnetic fields you can use the compass method but I'm not a big fan. Then there have been apps for your phone don't actually know how well they work they will pick up magnetic fields I just haven't tried them yet with the watch. Then the current recommendations from the Swiss can be found at the  image below. Basically the recommending a tool it would detect if the watch has been magnetized and only then is it demagnetized and that I guess it verifies that it actually successfully did the job.

But my real guess is that you have something sticky on the hairspring and lighter fluid really isn't's a good cleaning product for watches despite the fact that everyone on this group thinks it S getting something more appropriate would be better.

 

demagnetizer evolution.JPG

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3 hours ago, dadistic said:

Are you rinsing it after cleaning in lighter fluid? If not there may be residue. Try rinsing with 99% Isopropyl alcohol, and dry it with gentle heat,  with the parts in a basket you can use a hairdryer.  A puffer works, too, if you have one.  Fluid can get trapped between the coils and take forever to evaporate,  but I'm not seeing that in your picture. 

 

I'm with David on this one. Last month working on an old sekonda, i was convinced the hs was magnetised as it looked visually clean but kept sticking. After demaging several times with no change, so i got in very close with a scope and with a little experiment when  magnetising a hs i could see the coils pull together when they got close enough. Other contamination needs a closer contact to stick. A thorough clean by pulling out the spring, some agitation of the cleaner with a puffer and even got a very fine artists brush involved. No more sticking of the coils.

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2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

a quick look on the net will bring up a few alternatives.

Now I remember why I haven't bought any yet--paralyzed by indecision. Between this and the war between ammoniated and non-ammoniated cleaners, I just gave up and continued with lighter fluid.

We've got Newall Hairspring Dip for $20/8oz

image.thumb.png.4520ec62229e0cf13a25c91e143fe04b.png

There's Troop-Balas ONE-DIP for $21/8oz

image.png.a95ed5a37ab74fe5bf83c3ef28cb0750.png

And the ever-reasonably priced Bergeon B-Dip at $46/50ml (1.75oz)

image.png.9e9e0cfbc7fe712e6c78c6029cdea1b4.png

 

Having zero experience with any of these, how does one choose? I don't want to have another ineffective cleaner for balances and jewels and I don't mind paying for something worth the price, but is the Bergeon worth over TEN TIMES the cost of the other two?

I like environmentally friendly and non-flammable, but will it be an inferior product to the "FOR INDUSTRIAL USE ONLY" ONE-DIP? 🤷‍♂️

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7 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Now I remember why I haven't bought any yet--paralyzed by indecision. Between this and the war between ammoniated and non-ammoniated cleaners, I just gave up and continued with lighter fluid.

We've got Newall Hairspring Dip for $20/8oz

image.thumb.png.4520ec62229e0cf13a25c91e143fe04b.png

There's Troop-Balas ONE-DIP for $21/8oz

image.png.a95ed5a37ab74fe5bf83c3ef28cb0750.png

And the ever-reasonably priced Bergeon B-Dip at $46/50ml (1.75oz)

image.png.9e9e0cfbc7fe712e6c78c6029cdea1b4.png

 

Having zero experience with any of these, how does one choose? I don't want to have another ineffective cleaner for balances and jewels and I don't mind paying for something worth the price, but is the Bergeon worth over TEN TIMES the cost of the other two?

I like environmentally friendly and non-flammable, but will it be an inferior product to the "FOR INDUSTRIAL USE ONLY" ONE-DIP? 🤷‍♂️

Ah yes the old paralysis by analysis, but a wise friend sometimes says to me " if you are not sure what to do, then dont do anything ".  Jumping on a decision can lead to making the wrong one. Becoming a bit philosophical here, its just a cleaner. For me if i was strapped for cash i would be trying the first two. Also for me if I wasn't strapped for cash but I'm a tightass anyway i would be trying the first two. And again for me Bergeon charge far too much for their products so i would be trying the first two. So i guess i would be trying the first two. It was a simple question MSB, I made a meal of it sorry 🙄

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8 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

but is the Bergeon worth over TEN TIMES the cost of the other two?

Yes it definitely has to be worth the money because  namebrand recognition and it comes in a pretty yellow box..

8 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Newall Hairspring Dip for $20/8oz

This is what we use it work.. Normally it's in the cabin and when you screw the lid on the candidate ask he has a   metal like cork like thing that goes in first followed by the lead and we usually put a sheet of plastic between the lid and the cork like thing they help to seal it in place.  Then it goes into a job are used to come in jars and when I purchased mine at the material house Debbie suggested purchasing the jar for general use and the camera for the spare solvent so I have my jar at work. Then the wording of environmentally friendly that's interesting isn't it?  Are human beings considered part of the environment? Or are we only considered against the environment and we don't count? Notice the reference to use in a well ventilated place? That is kind of late  well understated we had tape on one of our display cases so the store manager are owed my jar of rinse and that I'd  not sure how she applied it maybe with a towel and well it was not good for her health basically this stuff is extremely volatile and has a really horrible smell so she was slightly lightheaded for a while or basically just didn't feel well like what would happen when you're breathing noxious chemicals so I tend to try to not to breathe it in even if it is environmentally friendly.. But still is a really good at removing stuff that doesn't like to be removed.. Just don't believe it

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1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes it definitely has to be worth the money because  namebrand recognition and it comes in a pretty yellow box..

This is what we use it work.. Normally it's in the cabin and when you screw the lid on the candidate ask he has a   metal like cork like thing that goes in first followed by the lead and we usually put a sheet of plastic between the lid and the cork like thing they help to seal it in place.  Then it goes into a job are used to come in jars and when I purchased mine at the material house Debbie suggested purchasing the jar for general use and the camera for the spare solvent so I have my jar at work. Then the wording of environmentally friendly that's interesting isn't it?  Are human beings considered part of the environment? Or are we only considered against the environment and we don't count? Notice the reference to use in a well ventilated place? That is kind of late  well understated we had tape on one of our display cases so the store manager are owed my jar of rinse and that I'd  not sure how she applied it maybe with a towel and well it was not good for her health basically this stuff is extremely volatile and has a really horrible smell so she was slightly lightheaded for a while or basically just didn't feel well like what would happen when you're breathing noxious chemicals so I tend to try to not to breathe it in even if it is environmentally friendly.. But still is a really good at removing stuff that doesn't like to be removed.. Just don't believe it

John becoming a bit philosophical with the environmental thing there. Not sure if we are part of it buddy it was here long before we arrived and going strong, we just mess it up. Cool stories though and good information as always. Seems you are surrounded by women, one bright, one not so bright (blond by any chance) i still have to say though i am rather jealous 😉

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I haven't had One Dip around in a couple of decades, just haven't needed it with pro cleaning machine/solutions. But- I do remember having a spring that remained sticky. Benzine (lighter fuel) didn't help, isopropyl alcohol didn't help, finally tried clean acetone and it worked great. So that's an easy and cheap possible solution to try.

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Hi  It would seem there arfe many fluids that would do the job some Horologicaly inspired and priced and some not/ In the old days I have used Carbontetrachloride, normaly used as a spot remover/dry cleaning fluid, Brake/clutch cleaner, Acetone and Carburettor cleaner and also Cellulose paint thinner. All worked for me although I think Carbontetrachloride is no longer avaiable  banned by the EU a long time ago. Now put any of these liquids in a fancy bottle/can and label it Horological Balance Spring Cleaner and sell it for three times the price. Job Done.

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3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes it definitely has to be worth the money because  namebrand recognition and it comes in a pretty yellow box..

This is what we use it work.. Normally it's in the cabin and when you screw the lid on the candidate ask he has a   metal like cork like thing that goes in first followed by the lead and we usually put a sheet of plastic between the lid and the cork like thing they help to seal it in place.  Then it goes into a job are used to come in jars and when I purchased mine at the material house Debbie suggested purchasing the jar for general use and the camera for the spare solvent so I have my jar at work. Then the wording of environmentally friendly that's interesting isn't it?  Are human beings considered part of the environment? Or are we only considered against the environment and we don't count? Notice the reference to use in a well ventilated place? That is kind of late  well understated we had tape on one of our display cases so the store manager are owed my jar of rinse and that I'd  not sure how she applied it maybe with a towel and well it was not good for her health basically this stuff is extremely volatile and has a really horrible smell so she was slightly lightheaded for a while or basically just didn't feel well like what would happen when you're breathing noxious chemicals so I tend to try to not to breathe it in even if it is environmentally friendly.. But still is a really good at removing stuff that doesn't like to be removed.. Just don't believe it

Still waiting for that smiley face John, you're not going to give me one are you John ? Its going to be a rough day for me if you don't John. Oh ok here is mine to you John 🙂 and another for good measure John 🙂. Still love you though John 👍.

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16 minutes ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

I do have plenty of that on hand. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using it on watch parts. Maybe because it absorbs water from the atmosphere? Does it leave a residue?

I wouldn't really want it to be the last thing that was in contact with watch parts, but they can go into clean isopropyl or benzine to rinse.

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Trichloroethylene is nasty stuff,  I still have a bunch of it so I still use it.

I only use it in small amounts to clean things like balance jewels, and I go to great lengths to make sure that I don't breathe any of the fumes. 

A number of experienced people have recommended Hexane, I guess it's a bit less brutal but is just as good of a solvent. 

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11 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

I do have plenty of that on hand. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using it on watch parts. Maybe because it absorbs water from the atmosphere? Does it leave a residue?

I can't remember where but I do know that there are some people using acetone. I think it might've been a school was using it but I just can't remember where and why think that. Then in this fuzzy memory I'm not quite sure if I remember whether it dissolves the shellac or not. So probably fine for a quick rinse but if you leave it for a long time just check anything with shellac.

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