1987 Rolex Ladies Datejust refurb

[Klassiker]

2 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

the hairspring immediately deformed

You put it right once, so you can do it again. Don't get discouraged. From what I can see, you have a lot of ability and a good attitude. Think about what to do differently next time, to remember where all the screws come from.

[ManSkirtBrew]

Thanks, all. I'm going to take a break and work on some other projects for a bit, then come back. I most likely need to strip the movement down to the plate and start again.

They call it practice, right?

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Thanks, all. I'm going to take a break and work on some other projects for a bit, then come back. I most likely need to strip the movement down to the plate and start again.

They call it practice, right?

You are discouraged through some set backs mate, perfectly understandable. You've worked bloody hard and its fought you all the way so you have earned a break. Time to get your motivation back and have a go at something else for a while. You will come back to it stronger and better without a doubt.

[ManSkirtBrew]

Good evening, friends. After a good break, I decided to have another go. I stripped it back down completely and am giving everything another good hard look. I still don't see where that spare screw was supposed to go, but I'm going to re-watch some videos I found.

I noticed this pivot on the second wheel:

It looks hourglass-shaped and grooved. The jewel looks perfect, so I'm surprised to see this much wear.

But since I'm learning all manner of new things on this watch, I have to ask: did Rolex design it with this shape, or is that wear?

 

Edit to note that CousinsUK calls it a "great wheel."

Edited November 12, 2022 by ManSkirtBrew

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Good evening, friends. After a good break, I decided to have another go. I stripped it back down completely and am giving everything another good hard look. I still don't see where that spare screw was supposed to go, but I'm going to re-watch some videos I found.

I noticed this pivot on the second wheel:

It looks hourglass-shaped and grooved. The jewel looks perfect, so I'm surprised to see this much wear.

But since I'm learning all manner of new things on this watch, I have to ask: did Rolex design it with this shape, or is that wear?

 

Edit to note that CousinsUK calls it a "great wheel."

Eyup matey.  Not something i have seen on any swiss movement i have repaired. Maybe john or another pro could answer if this is specfic to this rolex model. Could you improve the focus on the picture, any wear pattern visible would be obvious compared to something manufactued that way. A cheap phone tripod will help with the focus..

Edited November 12, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[nickelsilver]

That pivot is very worn, it should have nice polished parallel sides. You could refinish it, but then the jewel would be too large, so change the jewel, now things aren't original... I would go with the generic wheel you posted from Cousins.

 

Pivots get like this from being run past the service life of the lubricants. Not all, and not always, but some movements will keep running seemingly happy with every dry and dirty, and only come in when something breaks or the watch just stops. I did a Rolex for a friend last year; he had it serviced the last time in '98 or so, haha. Luckily he doesn't wear it often- and it did run pretty darn well! But dry as a bone. In his case there was no wear, but I have seen pivots in Rolexes and ETA movements that had worn so thin it was amazing they still worked.

[ManSkirtBrew]

6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

That pivot is very worn, it should have nice polished parallel sides. You could refinish it, but then the jewel would be too large, so change the jewel, now things aren't original... I would go with the generic wheel you posted from Cousins.

Thank you. I agree, I'd much rather just swap out the wheel, especially since it's reasonably priced.

Is there any compelling reason to go with a genuine Rolex replacement over the generic? I found Rolex ones on eBay for $75. The generic is about $35. At this point $40 doesn't seem like much, but I'm curious.

[nickelsilver]

I've never tried any  generic Rolex parts, so can't offer any advice there. I remember 20+ years ago a friend of mine (who worked for a Rolex dealer and could get parts) did try some just to see the difference. In particular the auto weight axle, which he found not as well finished, and didn't "break" correctly when punching out. But that was then, I wouldn't be surprised at all if quality has gone up, especially since parts availability has gone down in the same time period. You won't hurt anything, that's for sure. Only issue I can see is from a professional perspective of a watchmaker charging for genuine parts while using generic.

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Pivots get like this from being run past the service life of the lubricants. Not all, and not always, but some movements will keep running seemingly happy with every dry and dirty, and only come in when something breaks or the watch just stops.

this is my amusement on the collectors discussions. They like to complain about the high cost of watch repair. The greedy watchmakers and brag about how they have a watch running perfectly and I haven't had its serviced in a very very long time. Then of course at some point time they're upset with the greedy watchmaker because their watch has a problem. that's where you start finding all the issues of things worn out broken destroyed. Plus on authorized Rolex service they automatically replace a lot of components that we can't even get. So even Rolex knows a time limit between servicing where things have to be replaced

The other aspect of this that would also cause your problem is the gaskets will all disintegrate at some point in time and if you can get moisture into the case you can end up with a little rusty even surface rust which is actually a really nice grinding compound. 

It's one of the sad realities of synthetic lubricants rather than becoming sticky and stopping the watch like in the old days and saving the watch synthetic lubricants just disappear everything is dry and then the watch grinds itself to death. this becomes very common on early automatic watches that don't have jeweled bearings for the automatic mechanism.

genuine versus other has changed with time. I was once working on a Rolex that I had and it was at a time when the material houses still could sell Rolex parts. Seattle used to have anything at one time we had for material houses you could walk into and do business which was really nice. My favorite one run by Dan attempted to convince me to buy a best fit rotor rather than Rolex because it was $25 versus 75. But all the rest the parts I had purchased were genuine in the original packages. I was unhappy but. All the years I done business with that particular material house and than he had never steered me wrong and everything that he said was good was definitely good so we ordered it. It looked identical I could not tell at all.

Years later I get an answer to that question. Somebody going to school in Switzerland visited the best fit factory. At that time when Rolex would sell parts to us common folk they also sold parts to bestfit soda Omega. So when he was there they were packaging up Omega parts in the morning in the original mega packaging. But in the afternoon bestfit parts the same part but just under the bestfit number. So sometimes at least the past generic wasn't generic.

 

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

Okay, I'm back at this and could use your help. At some point in this long process, I bumped my parts tray and all the screws got mixed up.

I watched Richard Perrett's excellent videos on this movement, and am trying to lay everything out as he did to find out where my extra screw goes.

As far as I can see, every mounting hole is accounted for, but I have one tiny countersunk screw left over, circled below. It's the same screw that holds down the calendar works in the bottom left and bottom right of the image above, but I can't find a spot for it anywhere.

Anyone have experience with this, or can see what I'm missing?

[Kalanag]

6 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Anyone have experience with this, or can see what I'm missing?

This one?
 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Kalanag

[ManSkirtBrew]

7 hours ago, Kalanag said:

This one?

It's a good guess, but no--that and the screw that adjusts the balance end-shake are the only two screws I never removed.

[ManSkirtBrew]

Since I know you're all on the edge of your seat: I found it, thanks to the many pictures I (thankfully!) took during disassembly.

I was looking at this image, and realized I had seen that brass stem retaining screw somewhere:

I thought it was to hold the brass cover on the underside of the automatic works. When I took a look at my disassembly photo, it was pretty clear that screw was the countersunk screw I couldn't find.

Moral of the story: take tons of pictures during disassembly!

Since this has been together and apart a few times, since I've got some L&R #566 and #3 coming in the mail, and since it was first cleaned with only lighter fluid, I'm going to clean the parts again before tackling reassembly.

I figure it can't hurt to start with extra pristine parts.

[ManSkirtBrew]

Good evening, friends. Finally found a free minute to get back to work on this. Last time I left you I'd ordered a new great wheel. The next time I picked up the work again, I noticed that the 3rd wheel also had a bad pivot, so I ordered a replacement.

And here we are with the before and after:

Not complete perfection, but I'm going to let it run in for a day or two before touching anything else. I should get the motion and calendar works together first, but since nothing can go smoothly, I managed to shear the head off the brass setting lever screw. It looks like there's still a nub I can grab--maybe I'll get lucky and not have to disassemble the whole keyless works again.

It's been a long road! My heart was beating faster than the balance when I put it back on, but it started to beat the moment it touched down, and I was elated.

 

Edit: this is the screw. Re-edit: found it on eBay for $15. Whew!

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by ManSkirtBrew

[ManSkirtBrew]

Got lucky and the head of the bolt held on just long enough to break the bolt loose before it snapped off. I was able to extract the body with just tweezers and gently turning the movement.

[ManSkirtBrew]

Since I'm always looking at the parts through magnification, I sometimes forget just how small things really are.

[ManSkirtBrew]

Well, it's finally back in the case and polished up. It's not perfect, but I'm still pretty proud of the work. It was a tremendous learning experience, and really stretched my skill set.

Thank you again to everyone who helped me out along the way!

 

And bonus penny for scale:

[Endeavor]

14 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

It was a tremendous learning experience, and really stretched my skill set.

After training myself on only a few NOS ETA2540 (17mm) ladies-watch movements, I serviced my own Rolex Submariner.

Some longtime forum hands, like JohnR725, who was a tremendous help at that time, will remember and may at nights still turn around in sweat

Would I now recommend somebody else doing the same; NO WAY !

Thankfully, now 8-years later, my Rolex is still going strong and it was indeed a huge (starters) learning curve.

Congratulations with your achievement

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Endeavor

[Knebo]

On 10/15/2022 at 8:32 AM, JohnR725 said:

if you have the snow globe affect like this then all the numbers will typically be invalid. towards always really important that visually the watch should agree with the timing machine and the timing machine numbers in the graphical display should all be similar and when things are this bad of the graphical display well everything else is worthless.

 

 

basically all reverser wheels have to be treated in a specific way for each the various types otherwise undesirable things will occur.

typically on the Rolex am attaching some images they have to be epilam. That's to keep the oil from going where it's not supposed to be. Then you can see it's only on the post at the wheel goes on nowhere else.

 

Hello everyone, 

 

@JohnR725

I suppose you can't share more of the technical manual without getting into trouble? I have a 2135 on my desk and am about to turn it away because I don't want to work on it without sufficient info. I haven't even opened the case.

Are there any parts that are replaced by default during service (according to the Rolex manual)? 

The 26mm Lady Datejust I have here was last serviced almost 10 years ago. For that, the watch runs reasonably well at 240 degrees amplitude and with nice straight traces. But looses 25 s/d. Other positions are also fine (lower amplitude in vertical, but similar rate). 

But I observe that manual winding is rough. Quite a bit of resistance and it sounds (literally on my ear) like wheels are being forced to turn faster than they like. Any guesses what that might be? Reversing wheels? I was just working on an Omega 551 where the manual winding sounded similar and now sounds better with a fresh reversing wheel. 

[JohnR725]

5 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Are there any parts that are replaced by default during service (according to the Rolex manual)?

I've been to a lecture where it was explained why Rolex watches cost so much to service. In the service center where they have an endless supply of parts we don't have they do replace stuff. This would mean more than likely they must have supplemental information telling the center what they're supposed to be replacing and why. But we don't get that information ever.

Oh and then what about old Rolex service information what is that go? So I asked a friend who used to run the service center and he said when Rolex would send out at least the days of the physical now it's all online where it can't be copied supposedly. But in the days of the physical when you received the new documentation you are required to send all of the old documentation back to Rolex.

If you're seeking a technical guide the best place to look is eBay. There's a seller in Italy that  seems to have a continuous supply of Rolex manuals. I've seen some other one stroll up on eBay in one particular case the seller was getting negative reviews because apparently the seller was photocopying some of the manual. Otherwise anything out there is only going to be bits and pieces or vintage stuff like the PDF I'm attaching. oh and a suspicion of why he don't see anything modern PDF if somebody had the modern manual why would they PDF it anyway. then I have a suspicion Rolex would be unhappy if you are distributing PDFs of their manuals.

11 minutes ago, Knebo said:

I was just working on an Omega 551 where the manual winding sounded similar and now sounds better with a fresh reversing wheel. 

yes the old days where I service to watch for somebody and it came back with the reverser is not suitable. I'm sure if all the procedure my instructor told us in school but that didn't apparently work. Fortunately in those old days Omega parts were still available for material house I just purchased a brand-new one the problem was solved. Today you would look in the technical guide like the one I attached from Omega there is a procedure for the reverser wheels you don't even have to take them apart which you can't do anyway because you wouldn't have the tools and there's no reason to when you have a procedure that's better.

15 minutes ago, Knebo said:

But I observe that manual winding is rough. Quite a bit of resistance and it sounds (literally on my ear) like wheels are being forced to turn faster than they like. Any guesses what that might be? Reversing wheels?

the problem with reverser wheels each of the companies have differing procedures. Rolex has a procedure where lubrication has to be in specific places but definitely not in other places they have to use epilam and follow some procedure that they have in their manual.

35 minutes ago, Knebo said:

I have a 2135 on my desk and am about to turn it away because I don't want to work on it without sufficient info. I haven't even opened the case.

the phrase turn it away implies moneymaking job? The problem with a Rolex watch is if you make a mistake a can become a very expensive mistake. Plus the bonus of Rolex doesn't like any of us which means purchasing new components well go look on eBay and see what things cost. There are some aftermarket components for Rolex although Rolex frowns on that. The big thing the think about is if you taking jobs in for money you're doing it for the fun of that and you have an accident just how expensive is at accident going to be. Then you find out why typically the service people I think for Rolex watches don't know about this one was at the lecture was at least $600. And that's from a service center that would have all the parts

 

Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins UK.pdf 2130-2135-tech rolex technical notes update March 1987.pdf

[Knebo]

Thank you @JohnR725

On 9/25/2023 at 10:01 PM, JohnR725 said:

But we don't get that information ever

That's really a shame...

On 9/25/2023 at 10:01 PM, JohnR725 said:

still available for material house I just purchased a brand-new one the problem was solved.

yea, that would have been nice. I had to search for the rare eBay offer for NOS reverser wheels. Not cheap.

 

On 9/25/2023 at 10:01 PM, JohnR725 said:

Today you would look in the technical guide like the one I attached from Omega there is a procedure for the reverser wheels you don't even have to take them apart which you can't do anyway because you wouldn't have the tools and there's no reason to when you have a procedure that's better.

I'm well aware of that procedure. And I had applied it to the old reverser wheel, but clearly it was worn already... so lubrication didn't "repair" it. I also used the same process with Lubeta V105 on the NOS reverser - which runs smoothly now.

 

On 9/25/2023 at 10:01 PM, JohnR725 said:

Rolex has a procedure where lubrication has to be in specific places but definitely not in other places they have to use epilam and follow some procedure that they have in their manual.

I'm also aware of the lubrication procedure for the Rolex reversers. But, like in my case with the worn Omega one, I don't expect them to work properly if they're already worn. 

 

On 9/25/2023 at 10:01 PM, JohnR725 said:

the phrase turn it away implies moneymaking job? The problem with a Rolex watch is if you make a mistake a can become a very expensive mistake. Plus the bonus of Rolex doesn't like any of us which means purchasing new components well go look on eBay and see what things cost.

Well, yes and no. I'm not doing this commercially, but rather for friends. The money I take is mostly to cover my costs and investments into tools. And yes, precisely because of the risk of super expensive spare parts --in case of my own mistakes, but also in case of simple need for replacement of worn parts-- I am turning it away for now. If a certain number of parts need replacing, such as the reversers, I'd end up charging my friend/client the gray-market/eBay prices whereas Rolex have an endless and cheap supply for their own service center. So in the end, my friend/client won't save money. I told her all that and advised that she first gets a proper quote from Rolex.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, Knebo said:

Well, yes and no. I'm not doing this commercially, but rather for friends. The money I take is mostly to cover my costs and investments into tools. And yes, precisely because of the risk of super expensive spare parts --in case of my own mistakes, but also in case of simple need for replacement of worn parts-- I am turning it away for now. If a certain number of parts need replacing, such as the reversers, I'd end up charging my friend/client the gray-market/eBay prices whereas Rolex have an endless and cheap supply for their own service center. So in the end, my friend/client won't save money. I told her all that and advised that she first gets a proper quote from Rolex.

one of the most important lessons to learn in watch repair is when not to work on a watch.

[Knebo]

On 10/15/2022 at 8:32 AM, JohnR725 said:

if you have the snow globe affect like this then all the numbers will typically be invalid. towards always really important that visually the watch should agree with the timing machine and the timing machine numbers in the graphical display should all be similar and when things are this bad of the graphical display well everything else is worthless.

 

 

basically all reverser wheels have to be treated in a specific way for each the various types otherwise undesirable things will occur.

typically on the Rolex am attaching some images they have to be epilam. That's to keep the oil from going where it's not supposed to be. Then you can see it's only on the post at the wheel goes on nowhere else.

 

Hallo @JohnR725, happy new year! You wouldn't be able to upload the rest of the service manual for the cal 2130/2135, would you?

Cheers

[Knebo]

On 1/15/2024 at 10:27 AM, Knebo said:

Hallo @JohnR725, happy new year! You wouldn't be able to upload the rest of the service manual for the cal 2130/2135, would you?

Cheers

Maybe at least the oiling charts, @JohnR725 ? Pretty please 

[JohnR725]

16 hours ago, Knebo said:

oiling charts

You mean like the oiling chart's found in the discussion below?

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/3626-rolex-3135-beat-error-adjustment/page/4/#comment-234180

One of the unfortunate problems in the universe is finding Rolex documentation because they are very possessive. My understanding of you had a shop was authorized to service Rolex watches when you get an update in the days of paper you are required to integrated the new paperwork in removing the old and sending it back. Which is why there is almost no printed Rolex documentation out there.

That the link above there is a bit of a mystery there's a file titled "Rolex_Movement_Calibre_3130_3185_5-1" ? It's in color it's 2004 it's newer than most anything in existence at least out the wild and it's a PDF I wonder if wherever it came from there is more documents?

 

 

 

 

 

R7 rolex 75 pages Tech.pdf