Replacing broken regulator pin

[dadistic]

I'm working on a Seth Thomas model 9 grade 36 pocket watch from ~1906, and during cleaning in the ultrasonic a regulator pin broke. I'm not sure if it was the ultrasonic action or the way it was sitting in the basket that did it in, but it was severely corroded and gummed up to begin with.

Replacing a pin like this is something I haven't done before, and I believe I have a suitable taper pin to use as a replacement, but I'm scratching my head on the best way to get the remnants of the pin out of the regulator without mangling the hole. 

Looking for ideas, any pointers would be greatly appreciated. 

This is not my watch,  and I want to get it running. It's only seven jewel, so not worth sinking a lot of money into. I'd prefer not to have to scrounge a parts movement or spend money on a part if it can be avoided. I'm just going to have to take the hit on my labor  Besides, if I manage to do this, it will be great experience.

Cheers!

[Neverenoughwatches]

43 minutes ago, dadistic said:

I'm working on a Seth Thomas model 9 grade 36 pocket watch from ~1906, and during cleaning in the ultrasonic a regulator pin broke. I'm not sure if it was the ultrasonic action or the way it was sitting in the basket that did it in, but it was severely corroded and gummed up to begin with.

Replacing a pin like this is something I haven't done before, and I believe I have a suitable taper pin to use as a replacement, but I'm scratching my head on the best way to get the remnants of the pin out of the regulator without mangling the hole. 

Looking for ideas, any pointers would be greatly appreciated. 

This is not my watch,  and I want to get it running. It's only seven jewel, so not worth sinking a lot of money into. I'd prefer not to have to scrounge a parts movement or spend money on a part if it can be avoided. I'm just going to have to take the hit on my labor  Besides, if I manage to do this, it will be great experience.

Cheers!

All repairs like this go a long way to add to your experience dad ( sounds wierd not called anyone that for 15 years )   Personally i would be drilling this out, its brass, its soft so i wouldnt expect too much effort required. Increasing sizes of drills till only a fraction of material left that should hopefully break away or tap out the remaining. I would be tempted to use a pinvice though or a small archemedes drill as it being your first attempt. Alternatively it may tap out in one piece over a staking block although this may run the risk of distorting the regulator if its very tight. I have something similar to do with a setting lever pin that broke out , ready to solder it back in now that will be fun. What are your thoughts on putting in the replacement? 

[dadistic]

As best I can tell these pins are press fit, so that's what I would do.  Put in from the back , cut close to the back, tap with a stake to fit tight, cut flush and polish back. Trim the part sticking out to match the height of the existing pin, and adjust spacing between the pins. 

I may try the drill method,  after cleaning up the broken stub so the drill doesn't wander. I'd probably go pin vise, my archimedes isn't fine enough to work at that scale.  The other issue is bit size, I have down to 0.3mm, but even that looks a bit large. 

These things are small

[Paul80]

Hi.

These drills go down to 0.1mm and are not expensive at under £2 a set, as I am sure you will need more than one in that size if trying to drill by hand.

￡1.96  5%OFF | 10pcs 0.1mm-1.0mm carbide micro pcb drills print circuit board mini cnc drill set pcb drills
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mOaQ4MW

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

Hi.

These drills go down to 0.1mm and are not expensive at under £2 a set, as I am sure you will need more than one in that size if trying to drill by hand.

￡1.96  5%OFF | 10pcs 0.1mm-1.0mm carbide micro pcb drills print circuit board mini cnc drill set pcb drills
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mOaQ4MW

 

34 minutes ago, dadistic said:

As best I can tell these pins are press fit, so that's what I would do.  Put in from the back , cut close to the back, tap with a stake to fit tight, cut flush and polish back. Trim the part sticking out to match the height of the existing pin, and adjust spacing between the pins. 

I may try the drill method,  after cleaning up the broken stub so the drill doesn't wander. I'd probably go pin vise, my archimedes isn't fine enough to work at that scale.  The other issue is bit size, I have down to 0.3mm, but even that looks a bit large. 

These things are small

They probably will be a press fit,  It may tap out. I would give that a little try first without being too heavy handed it may save you some time with the drilling. Normally i would suggest introducing some heat to alter the component fit but I'm thinking the brass pin would have a higher expansion rate than the regulator hole it sits in.  As we all know and often mention pocket watches are more often than not, unregularised unless from a manufacturing batch. So be prepared for some alteration with your donor part. Great project for you dadistic and a terrific boost for your learning, i look forward to hearing about your success with it matey  

[watchweasol]

Hi as a rule they are a taper fit put in frm the topside and pressed in, so the best way will be to press it out in the opposite direction. With it being a taper it shouldnt ruin the hole, then cut and polish. pins can be got from cousins as an assortment at not to great cost.      gook luck        cheers

[dadistic]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Hi as a rule they are a taper fit put in frm the topside and pressed in, so the best way will be to press it out in the opposite direction. With it being a taper it shouldnt ruin the hole, then cut and polish. pins can be got from cousins as an assortment at not to great cost.      gook luck        cheers

That was another thought, but so far I haven't come up with a punch small enough to push out the old pin. If I need too, I can turn something that will work.

Thanks!

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, dadistic said:

That was another thought, but so far I haven't come up with a punch small enough to push out the old pin. If I need too, I can turn something that will work.

Thanks!

How about a fine needle ground down to slightly under the same dimension but not to a point as this will have the effect of spreading the pin. The needle in a self locking pin vice. Popping to my watch room to investigate.  I have the bloody covid nonsense so confined to staying in for a few days so i may as well be useful

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

How about a fine needle ground down to slightly under the same dimension but not to a point as this will have the effect of spreading the pin. The needle in a self locking pin vice. Popping to my watch room to investigate.  I have the bloody covid nonsense so confined to staying in for a few days so i may as well be useful

Sorry about delay dadisitic been busy with man flu lol. Yes mate the smallest needle from a selection, no need to even dress it down to size but flatten off the point to a fraction undersize of the diameter matching the pin you are pushing out then fitted in a small pin vice like this if you have one. Joblots of old watchmakers tools from ebay often throw these up for pennies.

[dadistic]

I keep a needle in a pin vise handy in my tool roll. I think I'll stone down the end and give it a try! If it doesn't work, I get to make a punch for my staking set.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 minutes ago, dadistic said:

I keep a needle in a pin vise handy in my tool roll. I think I'll stone down the end and give it a try! If it doesn't work, I get to make a punch for my staking set.  

Cool. Tool manufacturing my favourite. You're way too organised for me mate. I'm like the chef that has to have every gadget and cooking utensil out on the worktop. You want to see my watchroom, you know the goldfish that grows to the size of its bowl, well there is no water left in mine.

[MechanicMike]

well dad(dad? ain't called anyone dad in over 40 years?)you caught my attention. how did it go? I did this once before and along the lines of what weasol (hi WW!)said above except i blended mine flush from the one side and then took a scrap spare stake I had laying around and turned the end of it as small as I dared, sounds you have the ability to do some lathe work... one tap and the little slug popped right out. and yeah then get yourself some brass or bronze tapered pin blanks. I get mine from Esslinger.com here near me(actually the place is only 20 minutes away-I get stuff fast!) good luck and keep us in the loop. I'd like to see how you did it.

note: blending the end near flush eliminates the chance for the stub reg pin to further mushroom or worse. its fussy micro work but it does work.

[dadistic]

David is fine

I have needle files that I used to smooth out the broken stub of the regulator pin,  but I wasn't able to make the needle method work. Too wobbly, and too hard to keep lined up. Just pressing didn't work, and I wasn't able to juggle everything and take a hammer too it. 

So, like you, I get to make a stake. I have some A2 bar stock at 5mm, so I'm going to get some turning practice by seeing if I can make a tip that will work.  I don't want to sacrifice one of my stakes, as amazingly, they are all in pretty good shape

I didn't remember that Esslinger was in St Paul, should be quick to get parts to me, too!

Thanks!

Looks like the smallest pin in the Esslinger assortment is too big, they only taper down to 0.8mm. The back side of the regulator where the pin comes out is about .03mm. I have some that I think will work, but just a few, and I'd like to locate more if possible. I have a bunch of pins for hairspring collets, but those are way too small. 

I don't have collets for my lathe (Sherline), so I think it would be too tricky to try to make my own pins. 

Thanks!

[praezis]

You won't sacrifice or make from scratch a whole punch just for a tiny pin, that soon will break?

Better make e.g. 2-mm inserts for a 2-mm bored punch:

The pin for loosening shall be length = diameter. And a 2nd one much longer for removing the loose item.

1st picture shows inserts for punching out tiny rings from foil.

Some small drilling I do with pivot drills and a home made adapter for 1-mm shank drills in my staking tool:

 

Frank

[dadistic]

Thanks, Frank @praezis, this looks like a solution that will work now and be there to solve future problems.

I like the small inserts, much easier to heat treat if necessary.

Cheers!

Edited July 15, 2022 by dadistic

[MechanicMike]

3 hours ago, dadistic said:

I have some A2 bar stock at 5mm

wow thats some heavy pipe hittin tool steel. used A2 to make boring bars. where did you find it in 5mm tho? I'd like to get some. i believe you can heat treat A2 also.

 

3 hours ago, dadistic said:

I don't have collets for my lathe (Sherline), so I think it would be too tricky to try to make my own pins.

Sherline has some good stuff. I have an old Unimat DB200 with collets that I can do small stuff with. Some of the Sherline stuff fits my Unimat too.

[jdm]

1 minute ago, MechanicMike said:

wow thats some heavy pipe hittin tool steel. used A2 to make boring bars. where did you find it in 5mm tho?

A2 is is SS 304 in fastener denomination. You can get it in any size or shape.

[dadistic]

Got some O1 and A2 tool steels from McMaster Carr when I bought the lathe. 

https://www.mcmaster.com/metals/tool-steel/tight-tolerance-multipurpose-air-hardening-a2-tool-steel-rods/system-of-measurement~metric/

O1 is oil hardening and A2 is air hardening. 

So far I like the Sherline, but I really need collets for it. It can be set up to use 8mm WW collets, so if I get a WW lathe down the road I can use them in both. 

[MechanicMike]

good ol mcmaster carr. got it. 

i have oil quenched A2 then tempered it before has worked good.

doesn't sherline have a WW adapter draw bar setup for your lathe, avoiding getting another lathe just for that? 

[dadistic]

4 minutes ago, jdm said:

A2 is is SS 304 in fastener denomination. You can get it in any size or shape.

Not in the US, here it is air hardening tool steel.

https://www.astmsteel.com/product/a2-tool-steel/

Just now, MechanicMike said:

 

doesn't sherline have a WW adapter draw bar setup for your lathe, avoiding getting another lathe just for that? 

Yes, that's what I was talking about. A WW lathe may have advantages when doing close in hand held graver work, but we'll see over time If I need a second lathe.  I have quite a ways to go to develop my micro machining abilities

 

[MechanicMike]

again, keep us posted.

[dadistic]

I have successfully removed the regulator pin.

It turns out that I have a flat faced punch with a 2mm hole in it, and my 2mm A2 rod  stock fits nicely without requiring adjustment of the diameter. Lucky me!

So, based on the idea from@praezis, I turned a little insert.

 

The tip is 0.25mm, and with the tooling I have I can't make a square shoulder at that scale, so it should have been longer. The step keeps the tool from going to far and impacting the other pin.

 

 

A couple of taps, and the old pin was mostly out.  

Now to replace the pin and straighten things up. I hope the other one doesn't break when it's straightened, but now I can replace that one too if I need too.

Thanks everyone for all your help!