Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

So, what could go wrong? A brand new, never even run Seagull ST36 movement.

I put a wind on it just to see it run and then disassembled and cleaned it (despite the fact that it was indeed brand new).

20 min. in naphtha, drained, 20 min. 1st IPA rinse, drained 20 min. 2nd IPA rinse.

Removed all components and blow dry with blower. Remove balance complete from main plate and rinse with One Dip and artist paint brush.

Balance wheel and hairspring fall off balance cock.

Can't seem to figure out how hairspring was attached. This isn't a good photo because you can't really see the attach point but there was definitely no screw. If it was a simple shim into the stud I guess I need to be more careful? I'll inspect the attachment under a microscope on the second movement (that I just ordered). These movements apparently ship unlubricated from the factory.

 

st36 balance 2.jpg

Edited by grsnovi
  • Like 1
Posted

The glue holding the end of the hairspring into the prongs of the hair spring stud has been dissolved. You can try gluing it back with shellack or epoxy.

4AE2F607-6C64-4428-BBDA-16D065101ABA.jpeg

  • Like 2
Posted

I didn't realize that glue was used. I had read that glue could be used to repair this. I'll find an epoxy and take some care to get it seated flat so there is no twist imparted to the spring. Thanks @ifibrin!

Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, grsnovi said:

So, what could go wrong? A brand new, never even run Seagull ST36 movement.

I put a wind on it just to see it run and then disassembled and cleaned it (despite the fact that it was indeed brand new).

20 min. in naphtha, drained, 20 min. 1st IPA rinse, drained 20 min. 2nd IPA rinse.

Removed all components and blow dry with blower. Remove balance complete from main plate and rinse with One Dip and artist paint brush.

Balance wheel and hairspring fall off balance cock.

Can't seem to figure out how hairspring was attached. This isn't a good photo because you can't really see the attach point but there was definitely no screw. If it was a simple shim into the stud I guess I need to be more careful? I'll inspect the attachment under a microscope on the second movement (that I just ordered). These movements apparently ship unlubricated from the factory.

 

st36 balance 2.jpg

Thats that will be the ipa that has done that Gary. I never rinse the pallet and balance in it . I noticed one of my joblot watches had the hairspring glued in from the factory as well. That aside the impulse jewel will have been glued in as well you may have lost that. Dont throw away your two rinse jars hopefully it will still be in there. Make it one of your first steps to remove and set aside the pallet fork and balance assembly, then clean them manually by hand or machine should be ok in naptha only if that is what you are using and at the very most just quickly dip them in ipa for a few second rinse if you are prepared to take a little risk but not a long machine rinse. 20 mins is probably too long for the ipa rinse and the agitation of the US will loosen and disloge any glue or shellac it sets to work on.

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
  • Like 1
Posted

Epoxy five works but how you apply it and your approch greatly affectes the outcome. 

To keep the coil perfectly  level and unstressed, do as following.

 

1-Install the balance complete on the mainplate and the cock as normal ( no other part on the mainplate)

2- Fill the stud slot with glue, you can put a bit of glue on tip of a screwdriver and apply it to the slot.

3- Turn the balance to bring the end of the spring near the stud slot and slide its end into the slot.

4- Place the whole assembly cock down on bench. ( cock down because the glue then wont get on the spring in case any of it  drips down before it hardens) 

Let the glue dry . you will have a perfectly level  and unstressed coil.

The reason you want the balance complete and cock installed as the glue hardens , is because glue hardens around the spring when the spring is level so no need to try leveling the coil after glue hardens.

I have done this at least a hundered times, I gurantee you be surprised to see a perfectly level coil  

Once dried you can scrape off any glue that might have run out of the stud slot. 

A clean in mineral spirit and quick dip in ISP or one dip.  Done.

Good luck pal

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Posted
11 hours ago, Kalanag said:

Watchmaking is learning the hard way

I've certainly been learning the hard way. My question lately has been: To what end? Maybe my goal is to acquire more tools? Thanks for the link to the other article!

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

that will be the ipa that has done that Gary

You're right Rich! Truth is that I'm so used to watching these guys on YT screw the balance back on the main plate before they run things through the wash that I forgot that I should do things differently. Not only was it the IPA, but by the end of the second 20 minute rinse, the IPA had warmed up.

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I guarantee you'll be surprised

I'm sure there will be many more surprises along the way Joe - thanks for your detailed procedure!

13 hours ago, Rutabaga said:

Also check your pallet stones

I should have inspected the hairspring/stud interface when I took it apart. I did notice that the impulse jewel does seem to still be in place but who knows if it is firmly attached. Same goes for the pallet stones. I'll give them a thorough check.

I did go ahead and order another ST36, hopefully what arrives will be EXACTLY the same as the one I already had (I understand they come from multiple facilities in China). If they are indeed the same I'll probably clean, lube and reassemble the second one and then use the components of the first for more adventures in learning. 

Thanks everyone!!

  • Like 2
Posted

So, last night I set up my AmScope SM-3T stereo trinocular microscope and inspected the balance that fell apart on me a week ago as well as the balance of the replacement ST36 movement that arrived the other day. I saw the large blob of glue/epoxy that holds the hairspring to the balance cock on the "new" balance.

I inspected the impulse pin on the balance that fell apart and oddly enough it seems to remain firmly fastened however both pallet jewels on the movement that spent a total of 40 minutes in IPA were loose/fell out.

I don't believe that the adhesive used to hold the h/s to the cock is shellac since it isn't brown/amber in color. I can't tell what they're using to attach the jewels. It also does not look like shellac although to be honest, there didn't seem to be much evidence that anything was holding the pallet jewels in place other than a friction fit with the fork.

I wasn't able to move the impulse jewel despite pushing on it with some force - more than I used on the pallet jewels but I suspect that with all of the other degradation it would probably not be worth assuming that it's OK.

I have to say that I'm impressed with the microscope and that I'm able to see depth after all. The scope is rock solid and I'm not worried that it will hold the camera once/if I'm able to use the AmScope adapter (which will hopefully arrive this coming week).

My wife didn't seem very happy that I received yet another toy but she has had a 11" Celestron telescope for 20+ years so she was at least interested in peering through the microscope.

  • Like 2
Posted
47 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

So, last night I set up my AmScope SM-3T stereo trinocular microscope and inspected the balance that fell apart on me a week ago as well as the balance of the replacement ST36 movement that arrived the other day. I saw the large blob of glue/epoxy that holds the hairspring to the balance cock on the "new" balance.

I inspected the impulse pin on the balance that fell apart and oddly enough it seems to remain firmly fastened however both pallet jewels on the movement that spent a total of 40 minutes in IPA were loose/fell out.

I don't believe that the adhesive used to hold the h/s to the cock is shellac since it isn't brown/amber in color. I can't tell what they're using to attach the jewels. It also does not look like shellac although to be honest, there didn't seem to be much evidence that anything was holding the pallet jewels in place other than a friction fit with the fork.

I wasn't able to move the impulse jewel despite pushing on it with some force - more than I used on the pallet jewels but I suspect that with all of the other degradation it would probably not be worth assuming that it's OK.

I have to say that I'm impressed with the microscope and that I'm able to see depth after all. The scope is rock solid and I'm not worried that it will hold the camera once/if I'm able to use the AmScope adapter (which will hopefully arrive this coming week).

My wife didn't seem very happy that I received yet another toy but she has had a 11" Celestron telescope for 20+ years so she was at least interested in peering through the microscope.

The scope will make life so much easier for you. Great viewing ability and working room capacity.  Breakfast in bed for your good lady, a lovely bunch of flowers and a nice evening meal at her favorite restaurant tomorrow and she will forget all about your new toy. Then just keep a cover over it and use it when she goes out with her friends. 😊

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, grsnovi said:

So, last night I set up my AmScope SM-3T stereo trinocular microscope and inspected the balance that fell apart on me a week ago as well as the balance of the replacement ST36 movement that arrived the other day. I saw the large blob of glue/epoxy that holds the hairspring to the balance cock on the "new" balance.

I inspected the impulse pin on the balance that fell apart and oddly enough it seems to remain firmly fastened however both pallet jewels on the movement that spent a total of 40 minutes in IPA were loose/fell out.

I don't believe that the adhesive used to hold the h/s to the cock is shellac since it isn't brown/amber in color. I can't tell what they're using to attach the jewels. It also does not look like shellac although to be honest, there didn't seem to be much evidence that anything was holding the pallet jewels in place other than a friction fit with the fork.

I wasn't able to move the impulse jewel despite pushing on it with some force - more than I used on the pallet jewels but I suspect that with all of the other degradation it would probably not be worth assuming that it's OK.

I have to say that I'm impressed with the microscope and that I'm able to see depth after all. The scope is rock solid and I'm not worried that it will hold the camera once/if I'm able to use the AmScope adapter (which will hopefully arrive this coming week).

My wife didn't seem very happy that I received yet another toy but she has had a 11" Celestron telescope for 20+ years so she was at least interested in peering through the microscope.

Hey Gary,

Theres a lot of traditional watchmakers that scoff at the idea of a stereo microscope but as you’ve just realised, it’s a pleasure to use and more comfortable than dealing with the frustration of eye glasses or loupes. And as you stated, you now have depth perception as well, which isn’t possible with eye glasses. Sure, you need to have a lower bench to use it, and viewing/working on things at an angle is less convenient, but in those cases you can still use your traditional eye glass / high bench arrangement.

I work on a stereo microscope every day for hours on end for my day job, so I was pretty used to it when I started messing with watches. It probably the reason I never really bothered with eye glasses to begin with, hence my bias against using them.

Anyway, getting back to the thread. I must admit I didn’t follow this from the start but, as you found out, IPA is a risk with Shellac; there was a thread on it just the other day. As you’ve seen, it ruined your pallet fork but you did receive another so all is good. As far as impulse jewels in a balance, I’ve seen many that appear to be press fit rather than being held in with Shellac. Your balance might be such a case and if it feels sturdy enough without signs of shellac then I would just run with it. The worst that can happen is the impulse jewel can come loose and you can fix it. Or it will be perfect for years to come. I wouldn’t stress about it too much as this is your watch, not a customer’s.

Ah toys, and the creative ways men have found to acquire them inconspicuously. The idea is to have so much random stuff that the SO doesn’t realise it when you get something new. All they see is a wall of gear which they don’t care to understand, so they don’t realise when the collection grows. The big trick is to keep a stash of old packaging packed somewhere, so they also don’t realise that that there’s a new parcel haha

Edited by gbyleveldt
  • Haha 2
Posted
1 hour ago, gbyleveldt said:

Man oh man my English friends try Gerty every now and then when they want to poke the bear… The G isn’t pronounced like the G in Gerty. It’s more like the gargle you make in the back of your throat after brushing your teeth. I’ll use my real name in my next video so you can practice saying it 🤣

Haha. I was stating the mother in law we call Gerty and sometimes Gert for short. Some people are so touchy lol. Mine name is Richard, i prefer Rich. Hate the abbreviation Rick which is my brother in laws name who is a complete prick. I get Dick (dont read into that please, nothing could be further from that ), Dicky and Ricardo occasionally.  You have something on me now 🤪.

  • 1 month later...
Posted
On 6/12/2022 at 9:40 PM, grsnovi said:

So, last night I set up my AmScope SM-3T stereo trinocular microscope and inspected the balance that fell apart on me a week ago as well as the balance of the replacement ST36 movement that arrived the other day. I saw the large blob of glue/epoxy that holds the hairspring to the balance cock on the "new" balance.

I inspected the impulse pin on the balance that fell apart and oddly enough it seems to remain firmly fastened however both pallet jewels on the movement that spent a total of 40 minutes in IPA were loose/fell out.

I don't believe that the adhesive used to hold the h/s to the cock is shellac since it isn't brown/amber in color. I can't tell what they're using to attach the jewels. It also does not look like shellac although to be honest, there didn't seem to be much evidence that anything was holding the pallet jewels in place other than a friction fit with the fork.

I wasn't able to move the impulse jewel despite pushing on it with some force - more than I used on the pallet jewels but I suspect that with all of the other degradation it would probably not be worth assuming that it's OK.

I have to say that I'm impressed with the microscope and that I'm able to see depth after all. The scope is rock solid and I'm not worried that it will hold the camera once/if I'm able to use the AmScope adapter (which will hopefully arrive this coming week).

My wife didn't seem very happy that I received yet another toy but she has had a 11" Celestron telescope for 20+ years so she was at least interested in peering through the microscope.

Nice telescope your wife has. I've an 8" dobsonian Skywatcher, love it to bits.  If the house went on fire, the scope would be rescued first.  Wifey can climb out a window!  Anyhoo, I digress.  Would you mind telling me the make of Microscope you use, as this will be my next purchase, I think.  I need one desperately and I'm struggling with Loupes and tweezers and could do with an extra couple of hands.  Ta Frankie

On 6/13/2022 at 7:13 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha. I was stating the mother in law we call Gerty and sometimes Gert for short. Some people are so touchy lol. Mine name is Richard, i prefer Rich. Hate the abbreviation Rick which is my brother in laws name who is a complete prick. I get Dick (dont read into that please, nothing could be further from that ), Dicky and Ricardo occasionally.  You have something on me now 🤪.

All I can think of now is Basil Brush and Dirty Gerty at number 30...

Still, what's in a name, eh?

Phranquee

  • Haha 2
Posted
9 hours ago, frankiethebear2002 said:

Nice telescope your wife has. I've an 8" dobsonian Skywatcher, love it to bits.  If the house went on fire, the scope would be rescued first.  Wifey can climb out a window!  Anyhoo, I digress.  Would you mind telling me the make of Microscope you use, as this will be my next purchase, I think.  I need one desperately and I'm struggling with Loupes and tweezers and could do with an extra couple of hands.  Ta Frankie

All I can think of now is Basil Brush and Dirty Gerty at number 30...

Still, what's in a name, eh?

Phranquee

I affraid i dont share the same affection for our Gert that i do my mother in law. I actually like Gert 🤣

  • Haha 1
Posted
4 hours ago, MechanicMike said:

I know exactly what's going thru her mind but I try not to make eye contact....

You may know Mike at that point in time but only because she wants you to know. Any other time you are unlikely to have the faintest idea . How long have you been married ? 🤣

  • Haha 1
Posted

I'd like to see this thread wrapped up.

The three of you should take your continuing humor private - this thread started life with a real issue and now it just keeps flopping around on the beach.

Perhaps @jdm, @oldhippy or @Mark would please go ahead and lock it?

Thanks.

 

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, grsnovi said:

I'd like to see this thread wrapped up.

I have moved this where it belongs and hidden some posts that had nothing to do with watch repair. It remains open for pertinent discussion. The latter is an exceptional action, as by forum tradition we allow free speech of any nature, and off topic for as long is reasonable and the guidelines don't exclude. That being said the expectation is that extended chit-chat is kept in "about everything" section.

 

On 6/6/2022 at 4:25 AM, grsnovi said:

20 min. in naphtha, drained, 20 min. 1st IPA rinse, drained 20 min. 2nd IPA rinse.

In watchmaking rinsing means bathng parts for a brief time, like 5-10 seconds in some clean fluid with the objective of removing any particle or residue from the previous step. Done this way IPA is innocuous to shellac. Check the jar against the light and if any floating particle is noticeable, discard and repeat. The ideal fluid for that is demineralized water, followed by accurate drying and/ or a last rinse of IPA which absorbs water.

All that and much more has been repeatedlly explained in our dedicated topic:

 

Edited by jdm
Posted
11 hours ago, grsnovi said:

I'd like to see this thread wrapped up.

The three of you should take your continuing humor private - this thread started life with a real issue and now it just keeps flopping around on the beach.

Perhaps @jdm, @oldhippy or @Mark would please go ahead and lock it?

Thanks.

 

Yeah sorry about the gatecrashing  G .  We sometimes quite unintentionally forget what its about and get carried away with boy banter lol. Just call us the 3 stooges. 

  • Like 1

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • One of the problems with trying to Photograph Phils things are that his enjoyment was building these things so they tended to E falls on what will see if I can find some earlier pictures or any pictures I wasn't even sure because I was looking for that specific picture for somebody else and even it got the last version and that would have been the last version. You will note that he put the indexing on something that he could unscrew it or whatever and it can slide back out of the way so the rest of the lathe can be used as a lathe. With the lathe cut are actually coming down from the top I was there once where he demonstrated how to cut a pivot with the setup it was really beautiful. Older set up if I remember it's not a worm gear assembly in the thing in between the stepping motor and the holding block I believe this particular one was like a 100 to 1 gear ratio. Earlier version with watchmaker's lathe. Even looks like he is the watchmakers bed and then switch to something he made. Then I do have other pictures and things of the rotary stage in use. In the raw so if you tube videos here is an example of one were somebody's mounting a three jaw chuck. At one time there were available on eBay they were not cheap but if you're patient like I was I found one cheap on eBay. After you watch the video it look at his other videos he is a whole bunch of other examples of the same rotary stage. That I do know there are other pictures examples and possibly videos you just have to track them down. One of the minor issues of finding this particular tech sheet for the unit is I believe it was a custom manufacturer and the company change their name but I remember the new name here's a link to the company https://www.ondrivesus.com/rino-mechanical-components                
    • Escapement adjusting always interesting and depending upon the reference always confusing. Okay maybe it's not always confusing but it does lead to confusion. I have a PDF below it's actually a whole bunch of separate stuff including a hand out that came from a lecture that's on you tube. Then from that we get this image Consequences of doing things especially if you do things out of order or you do things for the wrong reason. Oh and even if the watches working I made the mistake one so showing my boss how tweaking the banking pins on a full plate on the timing machine made the amplitude get better and now he thinks that's what they're for and I don't think a fully grasped exactly what horn clearance means. Consequence of doing things. Notice what it says about opening and closing the banking pins and total lock? So yes I've had that on a full plate where it won't unlock at all and that's the banking pins or a combination of things basically. So banking pins unfortunately get moved. One of the ways to tell if it's been moved is the look straight down at the end of the fork with the balance wheel removed. Power on the fork push at the one side look at it push it to the other side also look at it and compare anything with the center reference the balance jewel and see if both sides of the same. No guarantee after the same there in the right place but at least are the same typically when people play with things one side will be way off from the other because they had no idea what they were doing at all because of course it's a full plate and you really have to paying attention and even then there's still hard to do. Then the other thing that comes up like it shows below is people often adjust the banking pins to do all those other things as opposed to horn clearance which is all that it's therefore and maybe bonus Guard pin clearance although you're supposed to deal with the guard pin is a separate thing like single roller gets bent in Or out or sometimes physically gets moved in and out. Some full plates older escapement's typically pallet forks held together with screws and you can actually unscrew and move the entire assembly in Or out more complications to deal with.     Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf
    • If he was much younger and some sort of sports player it wouldn't be a problem. They would be in there and doing surgery and he'd be back on the field in no time. Unfortunately when you get older little things are bad and big things can be really bad so not good at all.
    • Where I work everything incoming watches whatever detailed descriptions are taken entered into a computer program and photograph of each item. Then ideally although it depends on who's doing the paperwork detailed descriptions can be quite good other times there lacking. Like I really like it with pocket watches if they would record the serial number it avoids confusion later on. Then when watch repairs are completed that is also entered in. It's one of the amusements I learned when I was in school instructor had a shop and commented about the important aspect of keeping detailed records of repairs. Because oftentimes a customer who got a new crystal will come back later on when the watch doesn't work and expect you to fix the entire watch for free. Then you can remind them that they just got a crystal. Strangely enough that keeps coming up or occasionally comes up where I work now. One of the problems of using the service marks on the case is that in the case of pocket watches oftentimes that's not the original case. Then case marks? What I was doing warranty work for a company I used to describe a code number in the back of the case and it would tell me the next time I see the watch that basically what I did I made no attempt at keeping track of customers because we had literally thousands of them I think they sold 30,000 of these watches and they would come back by the hundreds because they had a lifetime warranty. Yes that's a story all of itself but I would put a code number that would reference what was done to the watch the last time and think I had a date in there somehow so it did tell a story if you knew the code. Another shop I once worked out the number would reference the page in the book. So other than knowing we had been in there you would have no idea what happened because you have to go look at the page in the book to see what happened. Then the problem of how you examine a watch you should examine the watch in detail every single time to avoid complications. Although on vintage watches and this is a of amusement I have at work when people ask something and I say of the watches done when it leaves. This is because on vintage oftentimes problems won't show up until the watches much farther into the repair like it's now running and you discover things that you can't discover before because it wasn't running to discover them that also become sometimes difficult to have exact rigid prices are estimates of repairs or in the case of a pocket watch you may not find out if a casing problem to later on when you case it up in the watches running. I was just thinking for all those people that would like to leave a mark maybe you should learn to do what some of the past watchmakers did? Leave a mark but leave it in such a way that no one will ever find it? Typically not done for repair purposes but done for other reasons like identifying it's legit. I have a friend with a Gruen watch and one of the Roman numbers the bottom line that just looks like a line under extreme magnification actually says Gruen watch company or something equivalent. So here's a link showing how to mark your watch without being seen although that's not the actual title. So if you can learn micro engraving you can engrave the watch someplace probably just about any place you just have to remember where you put it. https://cnaluxury.channelnewsasia.com/obsessions/how-to-prove-if-watches-are-authentic-secret-signatures-182516  
    • I have acquired a Citizen Leopard 36000 watch. My reason for purchasing it was my desire to own a timepiece with a 36,000 BPH movement, and the price was reasonable. Another motivating factor was gaining hands-on experience with the mechanism. The watch is in good condition, but I intend to fully disassemble it for maintenance. First and foremost, if anyone has prior experience with this particular model, I would greatly appreciate their insights. I do not have access to Citizen’s specialized lubricants and will need to use the ones available to me, such as 9010, 8000, and 8300 grease. Additionally, I do not possess the appropriate oil for the pallet jewels and will only be able to clean them.
×
×
  • Create New...