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Another one bites the dust


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So, what could go wrong? A brand new, never even run Seagull ST36 movement.

I put a wind on it just to see it run and then disassembled and cleaned it (despite the fact that it was indeed brand new).

20 min. in naphtha, drained, 20 min. 1st IPA rinse, drained 20 min. 2nd IPA rinse.

Removed all components and blow dry with blower. Remove balance complete from main plate and rinse with One Dip and artist paint brush.

Balance wheel and hairspring fall off balance cock.

Can't seem to figure out how hairspring was attached. This isn't a good photo because you can't really see the attach point but there was definitely no screw. If it was a simple shim into the stud I guess I need to be more careful? I'll inspect the attachment under a microscope on the second movement (that I just ordered). These movements apparently ship unlubricated from the factory.

 

st36 balance 2.jpg

Edited by grsnovi
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5 hours ago, grsnovi said:

So, what could go wrong? A brand new, never even run Seagull ST36 movement.

I put a wind on it just to see it run and then disassembled and cleaned it (despite the fact that it was indeed brand new).

20 min. in naphtha, drained, 20 min. 1st IPA rinse, drained 20 min. 2nd IPA rinse.

Removed all components and blow dry with blower. Remove balance complete from main plate and rinse with One Dip and artist paint brush.

Balance wheel and hairspring fall off balance cock.

Can't seem to figure out how hairspring was attached. This isn't a good photo because you can't really see the attach point but there was definitely no screw. If it was a simple shim into the stud I guess I need to be more careful? I'll inspect the attachment under a microscope on the second movement (that I just ordered). These movements apparently ship unlubricated from the factory.

 

st36 balance 2.jpg

Thats that will be the ipa that has done that Gary. I never rinse the pallet and balance in it . I noticed one of my joblot watches had the hairspring glued in from the factory as well. That aside the impulse jewel will have been glued in as well you may have lost that. Dont throw away your two rinse jars hopefully it will still be in there. Make it one of your first steps to remove and set aside the pallet fork and balance assembly, then clean them manually by hand or machine should be ok in naptha only if that is what you are using and at the very most just quickly dip them in ipa for a few second rinse if you are prepared to take a little risk but not a long machine rinse. 20 mins is probably too long for the ipa rinse and the agitation of the US will loosen and disloge any glue or shellac it sets to work on.

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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Epoxy five works but how you apply it and your approch greatly affectes the outcome. 

To keep the coil perfectly  level and unstressed, do as following.

 

1-Install the balance complete on the mainplate and the cock as normal ( no other part on the mainplate)

2- Fill the stud slot with glue, you can put a bit of glue on tip of a screwdriver and apply it to the slot.

3- Turn the balance to bring the end of the spring near the stud slot and slide its end into the slot.

4- Place the whole assembly cock down on bench. ( cock down because the glue then wont get on the spring in case any of it  drips down before it hardens) 

Let the glue dry . you will have a perfectly level  and unstressed coil.

The reason you want the balance complete and cock installed as the glue hardens , is because glue hardens around the spring when the spring is level so no need to try leveling the coil after glue hardens.

I have done this at least a hundered times, I gurantee you be surprised to see a perfectly level coil  

Once dried you can scrape off any glue that might have run out of the stud slot. 

A clean in mineral spirit and quick dip in ISP or one dip.  Done.

Good luck pal

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11 hours ago, Kalanag said:

Watchmaking is learning the hard way

I've certainly been learning the hard way. My question lately has been: To what end? Maybe my goal is to acquire more tools? Thanks for the link to the other article!

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

that will be the ipa that has done that Gary

You're right Rich! Truth is that I'm so used to watching these guys on YT screw the balance back on the main plate before they run things through the wash that I forgot that I should do things differently. Not only was it the IPA, but by the end of the second 20 minute rinse, the IPA had warmed up.

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I guarantee you'll be surprised

I'm sure there will be many more surprises along the way Joe - thanks for your detailed procedure!

13 hours ago, Rutabaga said:

Also check your pallet stones

I should have inspected the hairspring/stud interface when I took it apart. I did notice that the impulse jewel does seem to still be in place but who knows if it is firmly attached. Same goes for the pallet stones. I'll give them a thorough check.

I did go ahead and order another ST36, hopefully what arrives will be EXACTLY the same as the one I already had (I understand they come from multiple facilities in China). If they are indeed the same I'll probably clean, lube and reassemble the second one and then use the components of the first for more adventures in learning. 

Thanks everyone!!

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So, last night I set up my AmScope SM-3T stereo trinocular microscope and inspected the balance that fell apart on me a week ago as well as the balance of the replacement ST36 movement that arrived the other day. I saw the large blob of glue/epoxy that holds the hairspring to the balance cock on the "new" balance.

I inspected the impulse pin on the balance that fell apart and oddly enough it seems to remain firmly fastened however both pallet jewels on the movement that spent a total of 40 minutes in IPA were loose/fell out.

I don't believe that the adhesive used to hold the h/s to the cock is shellac since it isn't brown/amber in color. I can't tell what they're using to attach the jewels. It also does not look like shellac although to be honest, there didn't seem to be much evidence that anything was holding the pallet jewels in place other than a friction fit with the fork.

I wasn't able to move the impulse jewel despite pushing on it with some force - more than I used on the pallet jewels but I suspect that with all of the other degradation it would probably not be worth assuming that it's OK.

I have to say that I'm impressed with the microscope and that I'm able to see depth after all. The scope is rock solid and I'm not worried that it will hold the camera once/if I'm able to use the AmScope adapter (which will hopefully arrive this coming week).

My wife didn't seem very happy that I received yet another toy but she has had a 11" Celestron telescope for 20+ years so she was at least interested in peering through the microscope.

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47 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

So, last night I set up my AmScope SM-3T stereo trinocular microscope and inspected the balance that fell apart on me a week ago as well as the balance of the replacement ST36 movement that arrived the other day. I saw the large blob of glue/epoxy that holds the hairspring to the balance cock on the "new" balance.

I inspected the impulse pin on the balance that fell apart and oddly enough it seems to remain firmly fastened however both pallet jewels on the movement that spent a total of 40 minutes in IPA were loose/fell out.

I don't believe that the adhesive used to hold the h/s to the cock is shellac since it isn't brown/amber in color. I can't tell what they're using to attach the jewels. It also does not look like shellac although to be honest, there didn't seem to be much evidence that anything was holding the pallet jewels in place other than a friction fit with the fork.

I wasn't able to move the impulse jewel despite pushing on it with some force - more than I used on the pallet jewels but I suspect that with all of the other degradation it would probably not be worth assuming that it's OK.

I have to say that I'm impressed with the microscope and that I'm able to see depth after all. The scope is rock solid and I'm not worried that it will hold the camera once/if I'm able to use the AmScope adapter (which will hopefully arrive this coming week).

My wife didn't seem very happy that I received yet another toy but she has had a 11" Celestron telescope for 20+ years so she was at least interested in peering through the microscope.

The scope will make life so much easier for you. Great viewing ability and working room capacity.  Breakfast in bed for your good lady, a lovely bunch of flowers and a nice evening meal at her favorite restaurant tomorrow and she will forget all about your new toy. Then just keep a cover over it and use it when she goes out with her friends. 😊

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7 hours ago, grsnovi said:

So, last night I set up my AmScope SM-3T stereo trinocular microscope and inspected the balance that fell apart on me a week ago as well as the balance of the replacement ST36 movement that arrived the other day. I saw the large blob of glue/epoxy that holds the hairspring to the balance cock on the "new" balance.

I inspected the impulse pin on the balance that fell apart and oddly enough it seems to remain firmly fastened however both pallet jewels on the movement that spent a total of 40 minutes in IPA were loose/fell out.

I don't believe that the adhesive used to hold the h/s to the cock is shellac since it isn't brown/amber in color. I can't tell what they're using to attach the jewels. It also does not look like shellac although to be honest, there didn't seem to be much evidence that anything was holding the pallet jewels in place other than a friction fit with the fork.

I wasn't able to move the impulse jewel despite pushing on it with some force - more than I used on the pallet jewels but I suspect that with all of the other degradation it would probably not be worth assuming that it's OK.

I have to say that I'm impressed with the microscope and that I'm able to see depth after all. The scope is rock solid and I'm not worried that it will hold the camera once/if I'm able to use the AmScope adapter (which will hopefully arrive this coming week).

My wife didn't seem very happy that I received yet another toy but she has had a 11" Celestron telescope for 20+ years so she was at least interested in peering through the microscope.

Hey Gary,

Theres a lot of traditional watchmakers that scoff at the idea of a stereo microscope but as you’ve just realised, it’s a pleasure to use and more comfortable than dealing with the frustration of eye glasses or loupes. And as you stated, you now have depth perception as well, which isn’t possible with eye glasses. Sure, you need to have a lower bench to use it, and viewing/working on things at an angle is less convenient, but in those cases you can still use your traditional eye glass / high bench arrangement.

I work on a stereo microscope every day for hours on end for my day job, so I was pretty used to it when I started messing with watches. It probably the reason I never really bothered with eye glasses to begin with, hence my bias against using them.

Anyway, getting back to the thread. I must admit I didn’t follow this from the start but, as you found out, IPA is a risk with Shellac; there was a thread on it just the other day. As you’ve seen, it ruined your pallet fork but you did receive another so all is good. As far as impulse jewels in a balance, I’ve seen many that appear to be press fit rather than being held in with Shellac. Your balance might be such a case and if it feels sturdy enough without signs of shellac then I would just run with it. The worst that can happen is the impulse jewel can come loose and you can fix it. Or it will be perfect for years to come. I wouldn’t stress about it too much as this is your watch, not a customer’s.

Ah toys, and the creative ways men have found to acquire them inconspicuously. The idea is to have so much random stuff that the SO doesn’t realise it when you get something new. All they see is a wall of gear which they don’t care to understand, so they don’t realise when the collection grows. The big trick is to keep a stash of old packaging packed somewhere, so they also don’t realise that that there’s a new parcel haha

Edited by gbyleveldt
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1 hour ago, gbyleveldt said:

Man oh man my English friends try Gerty every now and then when they want to poke the bear… The G isn’t pronounced like the G in Gerty. It’s more like the gargle you make in the back of your throat after brushing your teeth. I’ll use my real name in my next video so you can practice saying it 🤣

Haha. I was stating the mother in law we call Gerty and sometimes Gert for short. Some people are so touchy lol. Mine name is Richard, i prefer Rich. Hate the abbreviation Rick which is my brother in laws name who is a complete prick. I get Dick (dont read into that please, nothing could be further from that ), Dicky and Ricardo occasionally.  You have something on me now 🤪.

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  • 1 month later...
On 6/12/2022 at 9:40 PM, grsnovi said:

So, last night I set up my AmScope SM-3T stereo trinocular microscope and inspected the balance that fell apart on me a week ago as well as the balance of the replacement ST36 movement that arrived the other day. I saw the large blob of glue/epoxy that holds the hairspring to the balance cock on the "new" balance.

I inspected the impulse pin on the balance that fell apart and oddly enough it seems to remain firmly fastened however both pallet jewels on the movement that spent a total of 40 minutes in IPA were loose/fell out.

I don't believe that the adhesive used to hold the h/s to the cock is shellac since it isn't brown/amber in color. I can't tell what they're using to attach the jewels. It also does not look like shellac although to be honest, there didn't seem to be much evidence that anything was holding the pallet jewels in place other than a friction fit with the fork.

I wasn't able to move the impulse jewel despite pushing on it with some force - more than I used on the pallet jewels but I suspect that with all of the other degradation it would probably not be worth assuming that it's OK.

I have to say that I'm impressed with the microscope and that I'm able to see depth after all. The scope is rock solid and I'm not worried that it will hold the camera once/if I'm able to use the AmScope adapter (which will hopefully arrive this coming week).

My wife didn't seem very happy that I received yet another toy but she has had a 11" Celestron telescope for 20+ years so she was at least interested in peering through the microscope.

Nice telescope your wife has. I've an 8" dobsonian Skywatcher, love it to bits.  If the house went on fire, the scope would be rescued first.  Wifey can climb out a window!  Anyhoo, I digress.  Would you mind telling me the make of Microscope you use, as this will be my next purchase, I think.  I need one desperately and I'm struggling with Loupes and tweezers and could do with an extra couple of hands.  Ta Frankie

On 6/13/2022 at 7:13 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha. I was stating the mother in law we call Gerty and sometimes Gert for short. Some people are so touchy lol. Mine name is Richard, i prefer Rich. Hate the abbreviation Rick which is my brother in laws name who is a complete prick. I get Dick (dont read into that please, nothing could be further from that ), Dicky and Ricardo occasionally.  You have something on me now 🤪.

All I can think of now is Basil Brush and Dirty Gerty at number 30...

Still, what's in a name, eh?

Phranquee

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9 hours ago, frankiethebear2002 said:

Nice telescope your wife has. I've an 8" dobsonian Skywatcher, love it to bits.  If the house went on fire, the scope would be rescued first.  Wifey can climb out a window!  Anyhoo, I digress.  Would you mind telling me the make of Microscope you use, as this will be my next purchase, I think.  I need one desperately and I'm struggling with Loupes and tweezers and could do with an extra couple of hands.  Ta Frankie

All I can think of now is Basil Brush and Dirty Gerty at number 30...

Still, what's in a name, eh?

Phranquee

I affraid i dont share the same affection for our Gert that i do my mother in law. I actually like Gert 🤣

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6 hours ago, grsnovi said:

I'd like to see this thread wrapped up.

I have moved this where it belongs and hidden some posts that had nothing to do with watch repair. It remains open for pertinent discussion. The latter is an exceptional action, as by forum tradition we allow free speech of any nature, and off topic for as long is reasonable and the guidelines don't exclude. That being said the expectation is that extended chit-chat is kept in "about everything" section.

 

On 6/6/2022 at 4:25 AM, grsnovi said:

20 min. in naphtha, drained, 20 min. 1st IPA rinse, drained 20 min. 2nd IPA rinse.

In watchmaking rinsing means bathng parts for a brief time, like 5-10 seconds in some clean fluid with the objective of removing any particle or residue from the previous step. Done this way IPA is innocuous to shellac. Check the jar against the light and if any floating particle is noticeable, discard and repeat. The ideal fluid for that is demineralized water, followed by accurate drying and/ or a last rinse of IPA which absorbs water.

All that and much more has been repeatedlly explained in our dedicated topic:

 

Edited by jdm
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11 hours ago, grsnovi said:

I'd like to see this thread wrapped up.

The three of you should take your continuing humor private - this thread started life with a real issue and now it just keeps flopping around on the beach.

Perhaps @jdm, @oldhippy or @Mark would please go ahead and lock it?

Thanks.

 

Yeah sorry about the gatecrashing  G .  We sometimes quite unintentionally forget what its about and get carried away with boy banter lol. Just call us the 3 stooges. 

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