Broaching holes for jewels when replacing jewels

[ifibrin]

When broaching a hole for a jewel, in order for a larger jewel to be used during jewel replacement, what sort of broach should be used? Is it a cutting broach, which is usually 5 sided, or a smoothing broach, which is more D-shaped? The reamer broaches which Seitz supplies are the D-shaped types. However, Horia makes both a cutting broach, and also a D-shaped smoothing broach. The Horia cutting broaches  are all 0.68mm, 0.78mm, 0.88mm,… while their smoothing broaches are 0.69mm, 0.79mm, 0.89mm,…

I’ve tried searching for the answer, but it’s not very conclusive. Is there a size maximum you can use a D-shaped smoothing broach to ream out a hole to, for example, a 0.99mm smoothing broach can only be used to ream out an existing hole only bigger than 0.89mm?

Do manufactured holes for jewels on main plates and bridges only come in fixed sizes of 0.59mm, 0.69mm, 0.79mm, 0.89mm,… as well, or do manufacturers make jewels in whatever sizes they want?

Edited May 21, 2022 by ifibrin

[nickelsilver]

Most jeweling tools came with D shaped broaches. Favorite used 5 sided, and as you have noted Horia offers both. Their take is the 5 sided to rough, D to finish. The D do fine on their own, really no need for both. I have Favorite 5 sided and Chatons SA D shape, actually prefer the Chatons SA (Seitz, in spite of being the most common tool, in my opinion is the lowest quality [their jewels aren't great either]).

 

I don't like broaching more than one "size" at a time*, so I go progressively through until the size needed, usually. But just today, I wanted to fit a bushing for the mainplate side of a barrel, and went straight from the original 0.8mm hole to 1.5mm and it worked great.

 

*I have a lathe permanently set up for faceplate work, with optical centering and all that, and use that for critical work where drifting a hole even 0.01mm might spell disaster. But used with care jeweling reamers will keep hole location pretty well.

[JohnR725]

I think maybe the users guide might be helpful for you.  I'm attaching a PDF I think you'll find a lot of your answers there

The reamers are of a specific size because the jewels come specific sizes. I find you want to be really careful to go slow because of you get carried away and try to go fast you may lose the center of your hole which would be bad.

Then I find that even though the reamers made to an exacting size for specific jewel size it's best to go really slow and not go all the way to the full-size and try the jewel. Because I find sometimes if you go all the way to the maximum of the reamers size the whole ends up being too big at least for me. So I will ream almost to the size and try the jewel. Then yes it does have two really close to big it doesn't fit falls out to tight you really try hard you can break the jewel.

seitz BOOK.pdf

[ifibrin]

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Most jeweling tools came with D shaped broaches. Favorite used 5 sided, and as you have noted Horia offers both. Their take is the 5 sided to rough, D to finish. The D do fine on their own, really no need for both. I have Favorite 5 sided and Chatons SA D shape, actually prefer the Chatons SA (Seitz, in spite of being the most common tool, in my opinion is the lowest quality [their jewels aren't great either]).

 

I don't like broaching more than one "size" at a time*, so I go progressively through until the size needed, usually. But just today, I wanted to fit a bushing for the mainplate side of a barrel, and went straight from the original 0.8mm hole to 1.5mm and it worked great.

 

*I have a lathe permanently set up for faceplate work, with optical centering and all that, and use that for critical work where drifting a hole even 0.01mm might spell disaster. But used with care jeweling reamers will keep hole location pretty well.

I was under the impression that D-shaped smoothing broaches don’t remove  material, and were more for burnishing a hole. Thus I wondered if these D-shaped smoothing broaches could only “stretch” a hole for the jewel slightly, like for example, a 0.79mm factory hole to a maximum of 0.89mm.

Are you saying that these D-shapes smoothing broaches are capable of opening a hole in the main plate to whatever size you need as long as you go incrementally larger?

Does anyone know the diameter of the spindle in the lever type Horia jeweling tool? What about the diameter of the spindle in the Seitz jeweling tool?

Will the Seitz reamer spindle (Bergeon 30522-B) work in a lever type Horia tool?

[ifibrin]

On 5/22/2022 at 10:38 AM, ifibrin said:

Will the Seitz reamer spindle (Bergeon 30522-B) work in a lever type Horia tool?

I did some research, and it appears the Seitz reamer spindle is supposed to be 8mm, and the Horia lever type spindle is also supposed to be 8mm, but I would need confirmation from someone who has both. @nickelsilver would you be able to advice?

Unfortunately, someone on the NAWCC forum has previously found out that some versions of the Seitz reamer spindle may not even fit other versions (earlier or older models) of the Seitz jeweling tool, due to the reamer spindle being exactly 8.00mm while the spindle the tool came with was 7.98mm. Thus, a Seitz reamer spindle may not fit a Horia lever type tool, depending on exactly how close it is to 8mm.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/seitz-jewelling-tool-did-they-come-in-different-diameters-need-advise.59797/

 

On 5/22/2022 at 2:52 AM, nickelsilver said:

Most jeweling tools came with D shaped broaches. Favorite used 5 sided, and as you have noted Horia offers both.

 

[nickelsilver]

I have Seitz, Favorite, Chatons SA, and Horia lever type tools. All interchange fine, all are 8mm. Well, one of my Horia tools, a very old one, has the hole every so slightly small, so it can be a little tight with some spindles. If I ever get motivated enough I'll run an 8mm reamer through it. Of all of them I consider the Seitz the lowest quality, so not too surprised if they might have an issue here or there. As they were mostly made from some sort of light castable alloy that does seem to oxidize, I could see that one might have some oxidation in the hole that would bind on some spindles.

[ifibrin]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

I have Seitz, Favorite, Chatons SA, and Horia lever type tools. All interchange fine, all are 8mm. Well, one of my Horia tools, a very old one, has the hole every so slightly small, so it can be a little tight with some spindles. If I ever get motivated enough I'll run an 8mm reamer through it. Of all of them I consider the Seitz the lowest quality, so not too surprised if they might have an issue here or there. As they were mostly made from some sort of light castable alloy that does seem to oxidize, I could see that one might have some oxidation in the hole that would bind on some spindles.

Thanks, that’s very helpful to know!

Do you have any comments on the quality/usability of the reamer spindle for the Seitz compared to the reamer spindle for the Favorite, or Horia? The Seitz reamer spindle appears to be a one piece construction. Interestingly, the Horia has a separate chuck, in addition to the reamer spindle itself. However, the Seitz reamer spindle and the broaches themselves are substantially cheaper (and easier to obtain) than the Horia…

Is one better than the other?

Edited May 24, 2022 by ifibrin

[nickelsilver]

Seitz and Chatons SA both use a spindle with a tapered bore, and the reamers have a corresponding taper. That's a good way of holding tooling securely and concentrically. Horia and Favorite use a spindle that takes Schaublin P4.5 collets. That's also a good way to hold things securely and concentrically.

 

As Chatons SA and Favorite are defunct, they don't really matter- but I have a Chatons SA spindle and reamer set that are absolutely superb quality, and I use them in my Horia tool. It doesn't really matter which system you use; the reamers are about the same price from Seitz or Horia, but the spindle is indeed more expensive from Horia. One distinct advantage with the Horia (Favorite is the same), is if you get a few collets, 1mm, 1.5mm, 2mm, you can also hold standard drills and taps with it. So from that perspective if I was to choose one over the other, I would get the Horia. I also imagine their reamers are higher quality than Seitz, but I don't have them so can't say for sure.

 

 

[ifibrin]

32 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

One distinct advantage with the Horia (Favorite is the same), is if you get a few collets, 1mm, 1.5mm, 2mm, you can also hold standard drills and taps with it. So from that perspective if I was to choose one over the other, I would get the Horia. I also imagine their reamers are higher quality than Seitz, but I don't have them so can't say for sure.

The only problem is that the Horia reamer spindle and chuck costs about CHF 150, and can only be ordered at the Horia website… which isn’t very easy to navigate or do online shopping from.
 

However, some of the items on the Horia website are substantially cheaper than from other materials houses like Cousins.