Finally succumb to the pocket watch

[Neverenoughwatches]

So in Harrogate with my gorgeous wife, walked into an antique shop and ten minutes  later and 60 quid less walked out with this.  A silver cased  fully working Elgin pocket watch. Just needs a subdial hand

[KarlvonKoln]

Sweet!  Movement pics next, please?

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

So in Harrogate with my gorgeous wife, walked into an antique shop and ten minutes  later and 60 quid less walked out with this.  A silver cased  fully working Elgin pocket watch. Just needs a subdial hand

Hi . Does anybody know who's makers stamp would be W.C. thanks

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

So in Harrogate with my gorgeous wife, walked into an antique shop and ten minutes  later and 60 quid less walked out with this.  A silver cased  fully working Elgin pocket watch. Just needs a subdial hand

Might not be an Elgin. I thought the mark on the back related to Elgin but it's used on many pocket watches. I won't know what's inside till I get home tomorrow 

2 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

Sweet!  Movement pics next, please?

Will do tomorrow when I get home.

[JohnR725]

46 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Might not be an Elgin. I thought the mark on the back related to Elgin but it's used on many pocket watches.

dial doesn't look right for an Elgin?

then the marks on the back are what you typically find on a British case they referred to when it was made where was assayed and what it's made out of usually. Which is nice because then you can figure out exactly where it was at one particular point in time as opposed to other countries where it's kind of a mystery as to when it was made etc.

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/britishhallmarkexamples.php

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

dial doesn't look right for an Elgin?

then the marks on the back are what you typically find on a British case they referred to when it was made where was assayed and what it's made out of usually. Which is nice because then you can figure out exactly where it was at one particular point in time as opposed to other countries where it's kind of a mystery as to when it was made etc.

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/britishhallmarkexamples.php

 

Hi John. No you are right it's not an Elgin. I came across some Elgins on ebay that had that Mark on the back. Like you say it's just a British case symbol. I've tracked the case down to London 1852. I have a silver smith makers stamp of W.C. but I'm down the toilet as to who that might be yet. 2 contenders are William Chawner and William Carter both London Silversmiths around that time. I can't quite make out the movement maker, it's  lovely script wrote so a little difficult to read.

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi John. No you are right it's not an Elgin. I came across some Elgins on ebay that had that Mark on the back. Like you say it's just a British case symbol. I've tracked the case down to London 1852. I have a silver smith makers stamp of W.C. but I'm down the toilet as to who that might be yet. 2 contenders are William Chawner and William Carter both London Silversmiths around that time. I can't quite make out the movement maker, it's  lovely script wrote so a little difficult to read.

 

[Randy55]

I'm seeing "Slow" and " Fast" in script...and a serial number.

But no maker that I can see in your photos ?

[JohnR725]

21 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I can't quite make out the movement maker, it's  lovely script wrote so a little difficult to read.

I tend to suck at reading script on watches but I know someone who's good at it if you get me a decent picture. then there are references I have a book that lists makers so I can look in soon as I get a name.

then it looks like a lever escapement I don't suppose we get a side view of the escapement?

Edited May 1, 2022 by JohnR725

[Randy55]

This looks very much like your movement,..the regulator hand shape, balance cock filigree, overall positioning of jewel holes, etc.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265661606110?hash=item3ddaaa68de:g:GhsAAOSw21ViZpee

[watchweasol]

Hi Definitley english is it a fusee with a chain?.    Harrogate  £80   not too bad, everything costs more  in Harrogte its posh there.    Have a shufty at the pocketwatchdatabase.com   and see what the number brings up.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Definitley english is it a fusee with a chain?.    Harrogate  £80   not too bad, everything costs more  in Harrogte its posh there.    Have a shufty at the pocketwatchdatabase.com   and see what the number brings up.

Yes it fusee ww. It was up at 68.00 and had a trade price of 60. I thought it was ok for 60.00. Needs a good service though. , I'm only getting 4 winds on the key about 3 hours.

14 minutes ago, Randy55 said:

This looks very much like your movement,..the regulator hand shape, balance cock filigree, overall positioning of jewel holes, etc.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265661606110?hash=item3ddaaa68de:g:GhsAAOSw21ViZpee

Yes randy. Its very  similar 

[watchweasol]

Hi  I have been looking for bits for a John Wycherly for over 2 years  nearly there, priblem with a lot of the english lever jobs was they were out sourced ie  some one made the plates another the dial another the wheels and so on and as a result a lot of them are One offs and parts dont interchange easily. In my case I got another movement A JW but the pilar heights were different although the front plate measured the same, the hunt goes on

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I tend to suck at reading script on watches but I know someone who's good at it if you get me a decent picture. then there are references I have a book that lists makers so I can look in soon as I get a name.

then it looks like a lever escapement I don't suppose we get a side view of the escapement?

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I tend to suck at reading script on watches but I know someone who's good at it if you get me a decent picture. then there are references I have a book that lists makers so I can look in soon as I get a name.

then it looks like a lever escapement I don't suppose we get a side view of the escapement?

I will get an inside photo tomorrow when I go home. 

2 hours ago, Randy55 said:

I'm seeing "Slow" and " Fast" in script...and a serial number.

But no maker that I can see in your photos ?

Haha yup I'm hoping there is something  inside 

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Definitley english is it a fusee with a chain?.    Harrogate  £80   not too bad, everything costs more  in Harrogte its posh there.    Have a shufty at the pocketwatchdatabase.com   and see what the number brings up.

I'm wondering how servicing a fusee will be for me. Thanks ww. I will have a look at that.

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Definitley english is it a fusee with a chain?.    Harrogate  £80   not too bad, everything costs more  in Harrogte its posh there.    Have a shufty at the pocketwatchdatabase.com   and see what the number brings up.

Serial no. 7429. Matches up on both the movement and the caseback.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Definitley english is it a fusee with a chain?.    Harrogate  £80   not too bad, everything costs more  in Harrogte its posh there.    Have a shufty at the pocketwatchdatabase.com   and see what the number brings up.

Thanks ww. I think I have tracked  it down. The assay stamp of London and a date stamp of a lower case script letter  #a# gives me a date of 1876 for the case manufacture . The serial no of 7429 on both the case and the movement points  me towards the Columbus watch company that has serial numbers 1 -12000 between 1874 and 1879 . But I'm yet to find a description of the movement  design. Is there only a database for American pocket watches. I also have a question that someone may be able to answer regarding the silver stamps. It looks like the duty stamp has been erased and I've noticed this on other pocket watch cases. Could  this have been a standard practice for some reason, duty paid or more likely not paid ?

Edited May 2, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[watchweasol]

Hi  The pocketwatchdatabase.com seems to have a lot of American watches, I dont think there is a compatible site that does the same for english watches.  English pocket watches vary a lot in style an make. all the books I have chart the development of the Pocketwatch but dont actualy have any identification data. As regards the duty stamp scrubbing it out doesnot make sense as it points to a fraud if t was legible no one would take much notice . Highlighting its removal does not add up.   There is a lot of data in Brittians old clocks and watches but its a hefty tome but again its about the history.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  The pocketwatchdatabase.com seems to have a lot of American watches, I dont think there is a compatible site that does the same for english watches.  English pocket watches vary a lot in style an make. all the books I have chart the development of the Pocketwatch but dont actualy have any identification data. scrubbing it out doesnot make sense as it points to a fraud if t was legible no one would take much notice . Highlighting its removal does not add up.   There is a lot of data in Brittians old clocks and watches but its a hefty tome but again its about the history.

Under the movement looks similar to an Elgin in design. If I can find a picture of a Columbus watch  company within the area of the  serial no. I have I might be closer to an identification.  Some research  on the case maker wc may help as well. If they just made silverware or if they did actually sell watches Complete.  Or maybe a separate supplier  that Brought the case and watch together. Shame I have no name on the dial.

[watchweasol]

The usua w l method was that the watch maker would order cases from a maker such as Dennison who would make the cases to the specific sizes of watch, Of course being silver they had to be passed by the assay office hence the marking and date coding and the grade of silver used. In some cases the watches and the dials and cases ended up with the finisher who assembled them all together and fitted a named dial. He was not always the maker, people like bensons , smiths, ingersoll  and may others made the complete watch and assembled it.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Under the movement looks similar to an Elgin in design.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by this? Were not quite on the same page of terminology so maybe you could explain it a little better to me?

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by this? Were not quite on the same page of terminology so maybe you could explain it a little better to me?

Hi John sorry, I rushed the explanation. Taking the dust cover off. The design of the movement  looks similar to an Elgin. The one I have was made 1876, I've found a picture of an Elgin dated 1867 that looks quite  similar. 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The design of the movement  looks similar to an Elgin. The one I have was made 1876, I've found a picture of an Elgin dated 1867 that looks quite  similar. 

I don't suppose we can have a picture?

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

The usua w l method was that the watch maker would order cases from a maker such as Dennison who would make the cases to the specific sizes of watch, Of course being silver they had to be passed by the assay office hence the marking and date coding and the grade of silver used. In some cases the watches and the dials and cases ended up with the finisher who assembled them all together and fitted a named dial. He was not always the maker, people like bensons , smiths, ingersoll  and may others made the complete watch and assembled it.

Thanks ww. So I'm really  looking for three different parties.  The case maker, the movement makers and then the finisher. I know that ingersoll and smiths were connected for a short while and that Ingersoll were American. I'm going to go through some company  dates. The dial I suppose could have been swapped out for a no name, it does look in quite good condition.  I'm more interested in who made the movement really . It needs servicing, it's escape time slowed down to once every three seconds on my bedside cabinet and was quite loud, it was rather unnerving and spooky. I think I have some strange mediumist talent going on in my head haha.

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I don't suppose we can have a picture?

Hi John yes it's near the beginning of this thread .

10 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks ww. So I'm really  looking for three different parties.  The case maker, the movement makers and then the finisher. I know that ingersoll and smiths were connected for a short while and that Ingersoll were American. I'm going to go through some company  dates. The dial I suppose could have been swapped out for a no name, it does look in quite good condition.  I'm more interested in who made the movement really . It needs servicing, it's escape time slowed down to once every three seconds on my bedside cabinet and was quite loud, it was rather unnerving and spooky. I think I have some strange mediumist talent going on in my head haha.

Hi John yes it's near the beginning of this thread .

I'm not sure how to get the movement out of the case.

15 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks ww. So I'm really  looking for three different parties.  The case maker, the movement makers and then the finisher. I know that ingersoll and smiths were connected for a short while and that Ingersoll were American. I'm going to go through some company  dates. The dial I suppose could have been swapped out for a no name, it does look in quite good condition.  I'm more interested in who made the movement really . It needs servicing, it's escape time slowed down to once every three seconds on my bedside cabinet and was quite loud, it was rather unnerving and spooky. I think I have some strange mediumist talent going on in my head haha.

Hi John yes it's near the beginning of this thread .

I'm not sure how to get the movement out of the case.

Found it. A pair of specks really helps. Lol

32 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

don't suppose we can have a picture?

 

49 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks ww. So I'm really  looking for three different parties.  The case maker, the movement makers and then the finisher. I know that ingersoll and smiths were connected for a short while and that Ingersoll were American. I'm going to go through some company  dates. The dial I suppose could have been swapped out for a no name, it does look in quite good condition.  I'm more interested in who made the movement really . It needs servicing, it's escape time slowed down to once every three seconds on my bedside cabinet and was quite loud, it was rather unnerving and spooky. I think I have some strange mediumist talent going on in my head haha.

Hi John yes it's near the beginning of this thread .

I'm not sure how to get the movement out of the case.

Found it. A pair of specks really helps. Lol

 

Oh my word . Ive just been watching it run under my scope. I think I've just fallen in love with pocket watches.

9 hours ago, watchweasol said:

As regards the duty stamp scrubbing it out doesnot make sense

Hi John. I've worked out was going on. I'm home now so stripped the movement  out of the case. There was no duty stamp, it was the winding stem that has scored a mark in the case back. Behind the movement are the same marks . The passant lion , the town assay (london) and the year letter 1876 and then the makers stand W C. and the journeyman stamp  x. Were duty stamps a later addition? 

[watchweasol]

Hi  has a close look at the mark near the number,  I thing its an old english script and could be a letter y but dont know what the font type is. I looks styalised and its been hand done.

If you are intested in the case making art  read the attachment

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrIQZGNNHBiHo8AyRt3Bwx.;_ylu=Y29sbwMEcG9zAzQEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1651549454/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.vintagewatchstraps.com%2fwatchcases.php/RK=2/RS=NQw4bR1MqzeiD1_5Enbo8BEcUEI-

Hi this might help https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrIQhEQO3Bi494AwwJ3Bwx.;_ylu=Y29sbwMEcG9zAzYEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1651551120/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.silvercollection.it%2fenglishsilvermarksXHDUE.html/RK=2/RS=a4TYbbmOI_taNnGM4loJdKlX.PQ-

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  has a close look at the mark near the number,  I thing its an old english script and could be a letter y but dont know what the font type is. I looks styalised and its been hand done.

If you are intested in the case making art  read the attachment

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrIQZGNNHBiHo8AyRt3Bwx.;_ylu=Y29sbwMEcG9zAzQEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1651549454/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.vintagewatchstraps.com%2fwatchcases.php/RK=2/RS=NQw4bR1MqzeiD1_5Enbo8BEcUEI-

All the writing is hand done. That must be the makers name, a lot of trouble to hand scribe and not put your name to it.

[AndyHull]

You have to be a little careful servicing a fusee watch. It is pretty easy to damage stuff.

They tend to all be a little bit different, but there is some general advice here.

 

I'm no expert, but if you run into problems or need advice, post here and someone will no doubt assist. Parts are difficult to get and you may end up having to adapt or make bits.

Edited May 3, 2022 by AndyHull

[Neverenoughwatches]

36 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

You have to be a little careful servicing a fusee watch. It is pretty easy to damage stuff.

They tend to all be a little bit different, but there is some general advice here.

 

I'm no expert, but if you run into problems or need advice, post here and someone will no doubt assist. Parts are difficult to get and you may end up having to adapt or make bits.

Thanks Andy. I did think I might be out of my depth at the moment.  Appreciate the videos. It does need some work as it keeps stopping, the Inside is amazing to watch.