Watch Has Gremlins

[jdrichard]

Hey guys, been a while since I wrote. I have been working on a very old full plate Waltham pocket watch. Made a video on line on how to shim the balance with watch paper. It all worked really well. I also replaced the balance staff and had to reduce the hole size on the roller table as the new staff was ever so slightly smaller.

All that said, the watch was running well in the face down position and as well in the face up position; but only for an hour or so. This is strange to me. It has a really good amplitude in both positions but when the face is up it just seems to jam up after an hour or so. I turned it around and started the balance again with my finger and it hesitated and then off running again, only to stop after a period of time. What could the problem?  HELP:)

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 minutes ago, jdrichard said:

Hey guys, been a while since I wrote. I have been working on a very old full plate Waltham pocket watch. Made a video on line on how to shim the balance with watch paper. It all worked really well. I also replaced the balance staff and had to reduce the hole size on the roller table as the new staff was ever so slightly smaller.

All that said, the watch was running well in the face down position and as well in the face up position; but only for an hour or so. This is strange to me. It has a really good amplitude in both positions but when the face is up it just seems to jam up after an hour or so. I turned it around and started the balance again with my finger and it hesitated and then off running again, only to stop after a period of time. What could the problem?  HELP:)

Hi Richard. I also have an old vintage wristwatch from a cheapy brand company called selecta. Its one I repaired a few months ago that had very low amplitude even after I'd serviced it. So I decided to have another go at improving  it. It turned out to be no endshake on the balance and strangely enough the watchpaper shim vid you did encouraged me try the same method. I used a single adhesive sided label in place of the watchmakers  paper which failed while I was trimming it in situ. The fibres from the paper started to spread into the movement so I abandoned the idea. I used a method described by Mark Lovack of creating a mark or dot on the plate under the balance cock with a screwdriver having the effect of raising the balance slightly. Not a practice he endorsed but it is used occasionally  by Chinese movement manufacturers when needed. I used a small pin in a  pinvice, the method worked well and took the amplitude up to 270 which amazed me tbh. I Let it run for an hour or so and then checked it through positions.  Face up the balance stopped. A full stripdown unveiled a worn third wheel bottom pivot which must have been enough to stall the movement when it was face up.  A project now for another day.  Love your channel by the way, one vid about choosing books pushed me to buy 2 by Stan ?  Fried. Keep it going we appreciate  good information.  We say about you say ahboot

[jdrichard]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi Richard. I also have an old vintage wristwatch from a cheapy brand company called selecta. Its one I repaired a few months ago that had very low amplitude even after I'd serviced it. So I decided to have another go at improving  it. It turned out to be no endshake on the balance and strangely enough the watchpaper shim vid you did encouraged me try the same method. I used a single adhesive sided label in place of the watchmakers  paper which failed while I was trimming it in situ. The fibres from the paper started to spread into the movement so I abandoned the idea. I used a method described by Mark Lovack of creating a mark or dot on the plate under the balance cock with a screwdriver having the effect of raising the balance slightly. Not a practice he endorsed but it is used occasionally  by Chinese movement manufacturers when needed. I used a small pin in a  pinvice, the method worked well and took the amplitude up to 270 which amazed me tbh. I Let it run for an hour or so and then checked it through positions.  Face up the balance stopped. A full stripdown unveiled a worn third wheel bottom pivot which must have been enough to stall the movement when it was face up.  A project now for another day.  Love your channel by the way, one vid about choosing books pushed me to buy 2 by Stan ?  Fried. Keep it going we appreciate  good information.  We say about you say ahboot

Very funny and thanks. The darn watch has been running all morning face up without an issue. Just made another vid this morning called Watchmaker Tips and Tools 01. Should be published in an hour or so. I will find the problem if it persists. Thanks for the nice words btw.

[Neverenoughwatches]

28 minutes ago, jdrichard said:

Very funny and thanks. The darn watch has been running all morning face up without an issue. Just made another vid this morning called Watchmaker Tips and Tools 01. Should be published in an hour or so. I will find the problem if it persists. Thanks for the nice words btw.

No problem  JD, I will look out for this. I restored a lovely  little Oris Star a couple of weeks ago that stopped a couple of times before I cased it up. Then it decided to just carry on going, maybe just needed to settle itself into it's new working role. I've been wearing it ever since with no issues. I am getting ready to tackle a balance staff repivot or full remake with my newly acquired watch lathe. So I'm gathering as much information on that as possible before I begin. I have watched some of your vids on that. Would you mind recommending your cutting tools gravers ? Hss? Carbide ? Thanks

[nickelsilver]

What have you checked? I know full plate watches are a pain, but it's still important to check train freedom with the fork out, endshakes, and on these old American watches the escapement in particular as they tend to get messed around with quite a lot. The bankings tend to get messed with first, but it's important to do a full escapement check: drop lock, run to banking, full lock, fork horn shake and guard pin shake. Also, these will almost always have a single roller, which is less secure than a double roller, and the guard pin needs to be adjusted correctly or it will jam against the roller. Perhaps your balance endshake is too much now with the shim (shimming a balance cock would get you in big trouble in a professional environment or school), maybe the guard pin isn't performing it's job- face up, with too much endshake on the balance, could very well get the roller table out of engagement with the pin.

 

Did you check the pivots of the new staff with the balance jewels? They can be several sizes for the same caliber family on these, maybe the pivots are too small, thus not fitting the jewel holes, and thus the lack of endshake. If that's the case and the pivots are simply contacting the entry of the hole, you will have extremely bad performance in the verticals or it will stop completely. (Also- the jewels could have been changed at any time in the past, maybe only one, so important to check both with its pivot).

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

What have you checked? I know full plate watches are a pain, but it's still important to check train freedom with the fork out, endshakes, and on these old American watches the escapement in particular as they tend to get messed around with quite a lot. The bankings tend to get messed with first, but it's important to do a full escapement check: drop lock, run to banking, full lock, fork horn shake and guard pin shake. Also, these will almost always have a single roller, which is less secure than a double roller, and the guard pin needs to be adjusted correctly or it will jam against the roller. Perhaps your balance endshake is too much now with the shim (shimming a balance cock would get you in big trouble in a professional environment or school), maybe the guard pin isn't performing it's job- face up, with too much endshake on the balance, could very well get the roller table out of engagement with the pin.

 

Did you check the pivots of the new staff with the balance jewels? They can be several sizes for the same caliber family on these, maybe the pivots are too small, thus not fitting the jewel holes, and thus the lack of endshake. If that's the case and the pivots are simply contacting the entry of the hole, you will have extremely bad performance in the verticals or it will stop completely. (Also- the jewels could have been changed at any time in the past, maybe only one, so important to check both with its pivot).

Haha such a long complicated list for a thick joiner come watch repair hobbyist  like me. I'm glad it not me that has to go through it

[jdrichard]

6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

What have you checked? I know full plate watches are a pain, but it's still important to check train freedom with the fork out, endshakes, and on these old American watches the escapement in particular as they tend to get messed around with quite a lot. The bankings tend to get messed with first, but it's important to do a full escapement check: drop lock, run to banking, full lock, fork horn shake and guard pin shake. Also, these will almost always have a single roller, which is less secure than a double roller, and the guard pin needs to be adjusted correctly or it will jam against the roller. Perhaps your balance endshake is too much now with the shim (shimming a balance cock would get you in big trouble in a professional environment or school), maybe the guard pin isn't performing it's job- face up, with too much endshake on the balance, could very well get the roller table out of engagement with the pin.

 

Did you check the pivots of the new staff with the balance jewels? They can be several sizes for the same caliber family on these, maybe the pivots are too small, thus not fitting the jewel holes, and thus the lack of endshake. If that's the case and the pivots are simply contacting the entry of the hole, you will have extremely bad performance in the verticals or it will stop completely. (Also- the jewels could have been changed at any time in the past, maybe only one, so important to check both with its pivot).

Very very good tips NS. I wound the way ch again this morning and it has been running strong all day. Will check in the morning and see if any of your suggestions are the issue. The shim will set it off slightly. I’ll check that out as well.

[jdrichard]

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

No problem  JD, I will look out for this. I restored a lovely  little Oris Star a couple of weeks ago that stopped a couple of times before I cased it up. Then it decided to just carry on going, maybe just needed to settle itself into it's new working role. I've been wearing it ever since with no issues. I am getting ready to tackle a balance staff repivot or full remake with my newly acquired watch lathe. So I'm gathering as much information on that as possible before I begin. I have watched some of your vids on that. Would you mind recommending your cutting tools gravers ? Hss? Carbide ? Thanks

Carbide gravers 2mm flat and 2mm round, +4mm flat and round. From a US company engravers.com I think

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, jdrichard said:

Carbide gravers 2mm flat and 2mm round, +4mm flat and round. From a US company engravers.com I think

Thanks Jd. Do you experience much chipping at the cutting edge ? I have read some pros and cons  of carbide against hss. Extra cutting edge life for the carbide as opposed to the more malleable forgiving edge of hss. I'm about to start learning to make a balance staffs and stems for wristwatches. Two common issues that I regularly encounter would be broken staffs and missing stems. My goal is restore and bring Back into service as many vintage watches as possible. Sad to think about all the millions of  loved and treasured sentimental watches neglected and hidden away in drawers.

[JohnR725]

I don't suppose we get a picture of the movement we like movements this is watch repair if this was watch collecting a picture the watch in the case would be acceptable.

Then timing machine photos would be nice three positions preferably dial-up and dial down and crown up.