Question on oiling in a center sweep seconds movement

[GuyMontag]

I'm wondering what is the proper way to oil in this center sweep seconds watch. This is a Caravelle 11DP (Citizen 0241) and I can't find a tech sheet for it. Would the following be correct?

1. Oil the shoulder of the center pinion with MD5.
2. Oil the extended pivot of the sweep seconds wheel at the wide shoulder area with 9010. I'm not really clear where on the pivot I should be oiling. Is 9010 the correct oil for the sweep seconds pinion?
3. 9010 on the sweep seconds bushing

 

 

[JohnR725]

One of the unfortunate problems and watch repair is not every single watch has a technical sheet. Then even if you did find a technical sheet the silly watch companies think that people repairing their watches probably know how to do everything and it probably won't explain how to oil things for instance because you're supposed already know that.

Then the D5 will work fine or one of the HP oils the synthetic version.

Then I'm not a big fan of 9010 I would prefer 9020 for the sweep second. Then yes you can oil on the shaft where it enters its bearing inside the tube that because you can't oil from the top.

[mikepilk]

I oil as you describe. I'm careful when using D5 on the centre wheel pinion not to get any down the centre - don't want a thick oil slowing the sweep seconds.

I put very small amounts of 9010 on the seconds pinion as shown:

[GuyMontag]

Good stuff, thanks guys.

[Klassiker]

20 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm not a big fan of 9010

@JohnR725Just for this application, or generally? Why?

[JohnR725]

17 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Just for this application, or generally? Why?

Not just for this application. If I explain while hijacked the discussion and Bill still be people coming along and telegram crazy so just a personal thing I don't think 9010 is a good lubricant. Even though the entire universe in several we don't know about think it's the best oil of all. The shortest version of the why is realistically to use it you should surface treat everything. Because that's actually what the factories do when they use it. There is just enough of an answer and enough the world can think I'm crazy. Otherwise after hijacked the discussion with all my bits and pieces of circumstantial evidence that points to it spreads it was not surface treated. Which is why like 9020 seems to stay wherever you put it and typically I'm doing pocket watches were seen zero sign of amplitude decrease with a slightly heavier oil.

[spectre6000]

On 2/20/2022 at 3:37 AM, mikepilk said:

I put very small amounts of 9010 on the seconds pinion as shown:

Imagine the wheel, its long pivot, and the shaft they live in as if they were enormous, and then exaggerate the tolerances. Think like a pencil with a paper plate on the end in some PVC plumbing. If you perfectly balance things with nothing pushing on anything, it'll all rest on whatever shoulders at the top/bottom. In the diagram above, it'll either rest on the leaves of the pinion, or the shoulders of the wheel opposite the elongated pivot. If you push on the edge of the wheel though, it'll lean over to where the wheel is leaning in the direction opposite the point of contact, and the elongated pivot will contact the shaft at that same point; similarly, the elongated pivot will contact on the opposite side of the shaft opposite the wheel where the second hand is attached. Those points of contact are where you want the oil. There's pretty much no way for the shaft to make contact along the middle, because even if it's resting on its side or something, there's always force on the wheel (or it's not turning and doesn't matter). Typically, there are shoulders on the elongated pivot at either end of the shaft. It's easier to manufacture those small areas to a high tolerance than than the whole shaft (also less drag from the oil, etc.), and they just narrow the rest down a bit so it is removed from the equation. Those shoulders are where you want the oil.

Pushing through JohnR725's voice to text app, I think he's referring to Fix-o-Drop type treatments. It does something with surface tension of the oil or some such, and essentially, you put it where you want the oil to stay, and then oil on top of it. He's saying 9010 requires this to stay in place. Sounds like 9020 stays where you put it more reliably in his experience. First I've heard of it, but he's way more experienced with this than I am. I've not been around long enough, done enough watches, and especially not done enough that I'd have reason to come back to to have seen 9010 creep. Where I'm at, and for what I'm doing, I've got a bottle of 9010 that I'll use up without the Fix-o-Drop until I see a problem or run out... Or maybe John goes into more detail. I can be convinced of anything provided sufficient evidence/compelling arguments/etc.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, spectre6000 said:

Pushing through JohnR725's voice to text app

Yes that can really be a problem on the other hand without it I wouldn't be here at all. But it does mean the reader is subject to goofy conversations from me and my frustration with that's not what I said but why is it there on the screen? Sometimes the software has a mind of its own.

If we discuss the lubrication in this discussion it means where hijacking the discussion into a lubrication discussion which is why was trying to keep the answer short.

Basically what we're seeing here is my long-term fascination with horological lubrication and things related to it.

2 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

Fix-o-Drop

I usually just shortened it to call it surface treatment which is not technically correct.  To be technically correct I should call it Epilame. Unfortunately that's not a word in my dictation vocabulary So that's typically why don't use the word as I have to look up how to spell it.

The first link has a really nice animation of what it does. In their example they using an oil which has a habit of spreading really really fast and they show how well the process works to keeping the oil from spreading.

The second link you see the typical horological description of the process and it's used on the escapement. Typically if it's going to be used anywhere on a watch this is where typically you would find it.

The third link you use the most common company purchased from there are others. Because it is used industrial applications and there are other companies producing it for watch repair. If you thought the price of their oil was expensive than don't even think about looking with this costs.

http://www.epilamisierung.com/en/

https://ajhsl.co.uk/epilame-an-overview-and-explanation/

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/epilames

2 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

He's saying 9010 requires this to stay in place.

Yes that definitely sums up what I'm trying to say.