How do I identify a replacement movement.

[Bradders]

Hi everyone. 
This watch was my Dads, he died whe I was 7 and this is pretty much the only thing I have of his but it’s not in great shape.  I’m pretty sure the movement is not financially viable. Although I’ve fixed the keyless works, it’s pretty worn and I think I the balance spring is goosed. I don’t imagine it’s a cheap job to have done professionally. 

Anyway, I’d like to replace the movement and would like to know where to start. 
the current one is a Basis 17 Jewel movement which I guess aren’t available?

 The dial is held to the movement by two screws on the front face (see pics) at just past the 12 and 6 o’clock positions. Is this an unusual way of securing the dial? 
 

I’d love to re-use the case, hands and dial so it at least still looks like my late Fathers watch (no jokes about time keeping please!! Lol). 
 

Can anyone offer me any advice as to how I identify a suitable movement?

Thanks in advance,

Simon. 

[Bradders]

Don’t know why I missed the most important pic. 

[AndyHull]

That is a BFG866  - not too difficult to find, and I may even have a donor in my stash. I'd need to check.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Baumgartner_866

https://17jewels.info/movements/b/baumgartner/baumgartner-866/

Your version is the 17 Jewel Calendar version, but I think most parts are interchangeable between the different versions.

Cousins have some parts.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/filter/bfg-movement-parts

Cousins also have the service manual which will detail the differences between the different versions.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/categories/2529_BFG 866,866.31.7.pdf

More about BFG here.

http://www.mikrolisk.de/show.php?site=280&suchwort=Baumgartner&searchWhere=all#sucheMarker

[Bradders]

7 hours ago, AndyHull said:

That is a BFG866  - not too difficult to find, and I may even have a donor in my stash. I'd need to check.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Baumgartner_866

https://17jewels.info/movements/b/baumgartner/baumgartner-866/

Your version is the 17 Jewel Calendar version, but I think most parts are interchangeable between the different versions.

Cousins have some parts.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/filter/bfg-movement-parts

Cousins also have the service manual which will detail the differences between the different versions.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/categories/2529_BFG 866,866.31.7.pdf

More about BFG here.

http://www.mikrolisk.de/show.php?site=280&suchwort=Baumgartner&searchWhere=all#sucheMarker

You are my saviour!!! Thank you so much! I will check these links out! 

[yankeedog]

Wind it up.soak it in naphtha. Let it dry and lightly  oil it. However dont soak the date wheel. Naphtha  and paint don't  get along well 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by yankeedog

[Bradders]

46 minutes ago, yankeedog said:

Wind it up.soak it in naphtha. Let it dry and lightly  oil it. However dont soak the date wheel. Naphtha  and paint don't  get along well 

 

Forgive my ignorance. What will that do?

[AndyHull]

Naptha will dissolve the old tired and tarry oils, and free up all of the gummed up parts.

Naptha == Lighter fluid. Unleaded petrol also works. Obviously these products are highly flammable, and probably not very good for your lungs or skin, so work in a well ventilated area, avoid smoking or juggling with fire, and wear gloves. 

Lightly oil means VERY lightly oil.A tiny amount. Just enough to lubricate those tiny pinions and no more. Any excess has a nasty habit of migrating to places it shouldn't like the dial, the crystal, or worst of all, the hairspring.

At all costs, avoid getting any oil on the hairspring.

If you do accidentally manage to oil the hairspring, then all is not lost, we can advise how to recover from this issue, but avoid it if you can. Hairsprings are very delicate (obviously) and oil will cause the coils to stick together, either stopping the watch, or worse still, causing the hairspring to deform. 

If you don't have a watch oiler, use a pin.

Flatten about 1/4mm of the point with a pair of pliers or mole grips to give you a tiny spade like end.

Watch oil can be picked up online, but is relatively expensive. Watch oilers can also be picked up online, and are relatively cheap.

DO NOT USE WD40. It is not a lubricant. It is a moisture repellent, originally designed to deal with the frozen condensation that forms on  the surface of rocket propellent tanks on the Atlas missile. It has many uses, but oiling the mechanism of watches and clocks is NOT one of them.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40

If you have nothing suitable, and can't justify the high price of watch oil, then at a pinch, you will get away with sewing machine oil, or supermarket own brand scent free baby oil. This is not a recommendation, just an observation. Proper watch oil is recommended.

Once you have it running, carefully clean your grubby fingerprints from the dial and the crystal and remember next time to wear finger cots or latex gloves. Now inspect the crystal and dial for more fingerprints and dust. Once you have the thing cased back up, its a pain to have to disassemble again just because some spec of dust got in.

Do not blow into or onto anything. The condensation from your breath will cause things to rust, and interesting bacterial growths to appear at some random point in the future. Use a rubber puffer if you feel the need to blow on anything.

Canned air may well destroy the hairspring, as it comes out of the can at about ten thousand miles per hour, scattering screws and other tiny parts like hands, and bending hairsprings.  Don't ask me how I know this. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by AndyHull

[Bradders]

56 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

Naptha will dissolve the old tired and tarry oils, and free up all of the gummed up parts.

Naptha == Lighter fluid. Unleaded petrol also works. Obviously these products are highly flammable, and probably not very good for your lungs or skin, so work in a well ventilated area, avoid smoking or juggling with fire, and wear gloves. 

Lightly oil means VERY lightly oil.A tiny amount. Just enough to lubricate those tiny pinions and no more. Any excess has a nasty habit of migrating to places it shouldn't like the dial, the crystal, or worst of all, the hairspring.

At all costs, avoid getting any oil on the hairspring.

If you do accidentally manage to oil the hairspring, then all is not lost, we can advise how to recover from this issue, but avoid it if you can. Hairsprings are very delicate (obviously) and oil will cause the coils to stick together, either stopping the watch, or worse still, causing the hairspring to deform. 

If you don't have a watch oiler, use a pin.

Flatten about 1/4mm of the point with a pair of pliers or mole grips to give you a tiny spade like end.

Watch oil can be picked up online, but is relatively expensive. Watch oilers can also be picked up online, and are relatively cheap.

DO NOT USE WD40. It is not a lubricant. It is a moisture repellent, originally designed to deal with the frozen condensation that forms on  the surface of rocket propellent tanks on the Atlas missile. It has many uses, but oiling the mechanism of watches and clocks is NOT one of them.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40

If you have nothing suitable, and can't justify the high price of watch oil, then at a pinch, you will get away with sewing machine oil, or supermarket own brand scent free baby oil. This is not a recommendation, just an observation. Proper watch oil is recommended.

Once you have it running, carefully clean your grubby fingerprints from the dial and the crystal and remember next time to wear finger cots or latex gloves. Now inspect the crystal and dial for more fingerprints and dust. Once you have the thing cased back up, its a pain to have to disassemble again just because some spec of dust got in.

Do not blow into or onto anything. The condensation from your breath will cause things to rust, and interesting bacterial growths to appear at some random point in the future. Use a rubber puffer if you feel the need to blow on anything.

Canned air may well destroy the hairspring, as it comes out of the can at about ten thousand miles per hour, scattering screws and other tiny parts like hands, and bending hairsprings.  Don't ask me how I know this. 

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply!

I’ve certainly got nothing to lose by soaking the movement and if avoids the need for disassembling them I’m fully onboard! I’d like to delve further into this but I’ll buy a donor movement to learn on.

I’ve already got a puffer and will get some Nephtha or similar along with some watch oil.

If I can save every bit of this watch, I will for sentimental reasons. Otherwise it’ll end up like Triggers broom and before you know it, it won’t be my Dads watch any more!

 

And I’ve stopped juggling fire these days...since the ‘incident’.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Bradders

[AndyHull]

11 minutes ago, Bradders said:

And I’ve stopped juggling fire these days...since the ‘incident’.

No eyebrows is not a good look. Could be worse though I guess.

I'll take a look in my stash this evening and see if I have a suitable BFG 866 donor in case you need parts. I doubt if I have a date version, but I probably have something I can pop in the post (FOC of course).

By the way, you will generally get away with dunking a pin lever movement like this in lighter fluid, but I wouldn't recommend it for something a little more delicate. Fine for the more agricultural stuff like Timex mechanicals,  BFG 866 and EB8800 perhaps, but not for anything more fragile.

Also the purists will say (quite rightly) that this is not the best way to ensure that everything is squeaky clean. Professional watch cleaning is a somewhat more sophisticated process. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by AndyHull

[yankeedog]

I predict you will see all kinds of crud in the solution.  crud which keeps the watch from working. Granted this is an expedient, not a substitute for a proper full service, but you should be able to determine  if the movement is a runner or not.You may want to change the naphtha two or three times. you can use a light synthetic oil for lubrication.

[Bradders]

9 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

No eyebrows is not a good look. Could be worse though I guess.

I'll take a look in my stash this evening and see if I have a suitable BFG 866 donor in case you need parts. I doubt if I have a date version, but I probably have something I can pop in the post (FOC of course).

By the way, you will generally get away with dunking a pin lever movement like this in lighter fluid, but I wouldn't recommend it for something a little more delicate. Fine for the more agricultural stuff like Timex mechanicals,  BFG 866 and EB8800 perhaps, but not for anything more fragile.

Also the purists will say (quite rightly) that this is not the best way to ensure that everything is squeaky clean. Professional watch cleaning is a somewhat more sophisticated process. 

That’s very kind of you Andy. Thank you!

[Nucejoe]

Jon recently did a most comprehensive walkthrough on bfg866, here 

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/tags/bfg 866/

 

Helps if you take a look.

 

[AndyHull]

Thanks, I was just about to look for that but you beat me to it.