Sellita SW-200-1 Stem SNAFU

[firebynight]

I've removed stems from watch movements before with no problem, and usually once I re-insert the stem the movement starts right back up again. 

But after I removed the stem from a SW-200-1, the movement won't start again. From what I can tell, I shouldn't have used a pin to press in the detent, which pushed it too far (why did they design it that way?!). 

I should have made sure the stem was in time set position AND ONLY used a 1.2mm screw driver in the detent slot.

Lesson learned. The hard way. I don't have the expertise to take apart the entire movement as I've found suggested.

Now another trick that sometimes works.....If you have an extra stem, cut off from the square down, now all you have is the threaded portion and the keyless slot. Sometimes with just the modified stem with nothing to engage the winding and setting parts, you can manipulate the stem in and out of setting position to get the winding gears to re-align, without pulling the barrel bridge.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/proper-way-to-remove-insert-stem-of-automatic-movt-sw-200-similar-eta-2824.125987/

Also this similar tip, for the ETA 28XX but I'm guessing a similar tool might work for SW-200-1? But what do you think -- Would this work?

I always r/r Eta 28xx stems in the setting position but I made a 'tool' to get out of jams when the set lever gets shoved into winding position while installing the stem etc. This can happen now and then when installing the stem without pushing the detent button in as RR mentioned.

Cut the pilot tip and flats off a standard Eta 28xx stem leaving only the tapered hub, then file one side of the hub down to the base of the stem leaving half of the hub.To place it in the movement...install the stem with the flat part of the hub turned away from the set lever (flat part toward the dial), push it in past the set lever, turn the stem half a turn so the hub will engage the set lever on the way out, then slowly pull out on the stem to pull the set lever back into setting position.It's a lot quicker than r/r the autowind assembly and mainspring bridge.

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/winding-stem-postion-for-stem-removal-from-eta-2801-2.675689/

There's this other hack tool that appears to be some kind of thin wire. I don't have an extra stem to try the stem mod tool, but if I tried the wire tool, where exactly would I try to engage the set lever? And it's difficult to tell exactly what kind of wire that is.

What do you all think?

[HSL]

Must say I haven't had the bad luck as some of these guys who moved the whole barrel drum by pushing in the stem.
If one is careful and push the button with the screwdriver in the slot while taking it out you shouldn’t get anything misaligned.
But if you push to deep the keyless work might get messed up. The best way to solve that mishap is to fix the keyless and check the stop lever is in place.
I guess the SW200 has a stop lever just as the 2824-2, if the keyless gets messed up it might also affect the stop lever which will block the watch from running. Think that is actually what happens.

The 28XX and the 2824-2 might also have different stems. But if you are using the stem for 2824-2 then it would be OK even without filing on it.

If my memory isn’t failing me there should be a post here somewhere on how to fix the keyless.

[HectorLooi]

If you accidentally pushed the stem release (setting lever) button too far in, welcome to the club. 

That was what sucked me into the world of watch repair years ago.

Mark has a video that shows a shortcut of how to fix a yoke that has jumped out of the groove of the sliding pinion. But going by your description, I think your setting lever is completely pushed in. That means you have to go in from the dial side and fix the keyless works.

Good luck. We are here to help.

[Tudor]

I think just about everyone has messed up a keyless at some point. Myself included. 
 

I may try making one of these tools though it’s been a while since I’ve needed to rebuild a keyless (for this reason). 
 

And remember there are many movements without the safety oval so a screwdriver can be used. You need a light touch with good feel and three hands on those. 
 

And why would the barrel bridge have to come out? Just the cover under the dial and date wheel. It’s a good lesson and allows cleaning and lubrication these movements desperately need!
 

[firebynight]

Thank you @HectorLooi @Tudor @HSL! I literally have no idea what you mean by fix the keyless works, but I guess I have no other choice but to dive in and find out. I just hope I don't wreck the SW-200-1 along the way! 

First question. I can't seem to get the dial off the movement! With other movements, the feet just slipped out. But upon closer inspection, it appears the SW-200-1 has some kind of retaining clip?

[HSL]

I would think that SW-200 is a quite near clone of the ETA 2824-2 so you actually could follow the procedure for this movement.

To get the dial of you have to push on the side of the two “clips” it has a sharp edge that cuts in to the dial feet’s to keep them in place.

To get a feeling of how the rest should look like you could take a look at this small walkthrough for the ETA 2824-2.
 

 

[firebynight]

22 hours ago, HSL said:

I would think that SW-200 is a quite near clone of the ETA 2824-2 so you actually could follow the procedure for this movement.

To get the dial of you have to push on the side of the two “clips” it has a sharp edge that cuts in to the dial feet’s to keep them in place.

To get a feeling of how the rest should look like you could take a look at this small walkthrough for the ETA 2824-2.
 

 

Thank you, @HSL This looks amazing and I look forward to working my way through this! I read it immediately. This is so well done, kudos! I feel like I'm starting class! (I've been thinking about trying the timezone course...)

I noticed you started from the back side of the movement. But since I'm just working on the keyless works can I just skip to the front side (pg.15) of part 1 and start from there for this project?

Do I need to worry about any stored power in the main spring? If so, can I just let it run down, or will I need to open up the back side of the movement as well?

And once I'm in the keyless works, is the pesky part that I messed up the setting lever that I pressed too far on the detent? How do I confirm that I have actually fixed the offending piece before I reassemble everything?

Thank you!

[HSL]

13 hours ago, firebynight said:

I noticed you started from the back side of the movement. But since I'm just working on the keyless works can I just skip to the front side (pg.15) of part 1 and start from there for this project?

Yes it is safe to do so since the click is securing the barrel at this time.

I very seldom post pictures without saving them in a PDF but since the pushing the pin too deep is a common accident I will do a small walkthrough in the wrong section,  guess one can show what happens in one picture but not how to correct it.

 

To begin with I usually just take off the oscillating weight, just to ensure it will not be in the way in the movement holder. It is kept in place with one screw.
Since the stop lever is operated by the sliding pinion, we will assume the lever is still in place but is not working because of a faulty keyless work.

Now one can safely put the movement in the movement holder. I now lift off the hour wheel.
Next I remove the date jumper maintaining plate. I think it always is best to remove the date indicator so you don't risk to damage it and create more problems.

 

Since this small instruction probably is applicable on other movements too, I would warn that the small pinion on the plate sometimes can be very loose so keep track of the parts.
 

 

Next, we remove the date jumper.

 

Now we remove the minute bridge, when taking these away keep track of which screw belong to what since they sometimes are slightly different.

 

Now you safely can remove the date indicator.

Now one can see what really happens work when one push the setting lever nob too deep. The lever is popping out and misaligning the most of the parts in the keyless work.

 

Now the setting lever jumper is taken off and inspected. This one still looks good.

There are three small pins or nobs on the setting lever. These has to get into the correct places in order to get the correct function. One now can see the pin holding the stem isn’t very high, so it will just take a gentle push to get the stem released.

 

Most of the times the corrector lever is still in place. Here you make sure the yoke is in the sliding pinion groove and everything lies flat and nice as in the picture.

The setting lever can now gently be lifted into place. At this moment I put the winding stem into place so I can be sure the setting lever comes into the correct positions. Make sure to align the pins in the setting lever to the correct places. The stem pin goes into the groove in the stem and the corrector lever pin goes into the hook shaped part of the corrector lever.

Now you just position the setting lever jumper onto the movement and tighten the screw loosely.
Don’t fasten it whole the way yet just tighten it until you feel a slight resistance.

With the setting lever jumper secure in place you now can push the yoke spring and the lever spring into place. You can see the correct positions in the picture. With the springs in position and loaded you can tighten the screw all the way.

Now you gently can put the date indicator into place again. Make sure the date indicator driving wheel and the date corrector isn’t pushing at the date indicator.

Put the minute bridge in place. Just make sure you took the correct screw so the bridge isn’t squeezing on the date indicator. Here I accidently moved the date indicator driving wheel a bit but we just push it back in place.

The date jumper comes into place. Push the jumper so it ends up between two teeth’s and not under the date indicator.

Put the date jumper maintaining bridge into place. Check the date jumper still is between the teeth and not under the date indicator.

To be able to test the modes fully you have to put the hour wheel back.
And that would be it.

Since you picked the keyless work apart one could clean of the parts and lubricate them while you are at it.
Correct lubrication procedure can be found here.

ETA2824-2_en_es_it.pdf

 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by HSL

[Lewisbrown1991]

Little tip for you with 2824-2/SW200-1s etc. 
 

For speed and efficiency, if you pay attention to the date jumper Maintenon bridge, you’ll notice a “tooth” shaped slot cut into it, now if you move the date ring round either by using the quick date or by gently moving it with a piece of rodico so that it lines up with that slot, you can simply lift the date ring out without having to strip the watches keyless/date sections from the watch to gain access. 
 

 

[Tudor]

I pull the minute train bridge (I call it the keyless cover) and then release the date wheel without taking the other side apart. 
 

Unless there’s a problem, best to leave it alone. 
 

Plus it’s faster to get it sorted and back to other tasks. 
 

But, there is certainly value in doing it “the right way” until you understand the working better. 

[HSL]

I'm sure there will be one hundred more ways to do this,  but sometimes doing it in a way that is 30 seconds faster might not be of any benefit as long as you don't service a shitload of watches a day.
Sometimes it is better to make even smaller fixes in a more methodically manner, in that way you get a sence of the general condition on the rest of the parts, and it minimizes the chanses you will come back to it later just because the dial ring or a tooth got a little bent. 
This is just a small philosophy I maintain, everyone else is free to do as they please, I have no problem with that  .
 

[firebynight]

THANK YOU SO MUCH @HSL Wow, floored by your thorough walkthrough. Printing it now. Super helpful and detailed. My first real lesson!!! 

[firebynight]

9 hours ago, Lewisbrown1991 said:

Little tip for you with 2824-2/SW200-1s etc. 
 

For speed and efficiency, if you pay attention to the date jumper Maintenon bridge, you’ll notice a “tooth” shaped slot cut into it, now if you move the date ring round either by using the quick date or by gently moving it with a piece of rodico so that it lines up with that slot, you can simply lift the date ring out without having to strip the watches keyless/date sections from the watch to gain access. 
 

 

Thank you for the tip @Lewisbrown1991. I'll keep that in mind ... after I've learned how to actually do this properly! 

[firebynight]

@HSL Thanks so much, my friend, my first lesson is complete! I had to repeat the process 6 times due to my clumsy missteps but in the end after several hours I have everything back up crown and stem reinstalled, and all seemingly running smoothly. In this case, the yoke had popped out of the sliding pinion groove.

Overall it was quite like open heart surgery, in that the movement was running the entire time. I'm not sure whether I should have tried to stop it while I worked, but all is well that ends well. Now, I know the keyless worked inside and out!

Getting the date wheel seated just right was the most annoying bit for me. 

Hopefully I will be more careful in the future when removing the stem/crown from a 2824/SW-200, but if I muck it up again, I'll know how to fix it! Thanks again!

[firebynight]

On 9/2/2020 at 9:26 PM, HectorLooi said:

If you accidentally pushed the stem release (setting lever) button too far in, welcome to the club. 

That was what sucked me into the world of watch repair years ago.

Mark has a video that shows a shortcut of how to fix a yoke that has jumped out of the groove of the sliding pinion. But going by your description, I think your setting lever is completely pushed in. That means you have to go in from the dial side and fix the keyless works.

Good luck. We are here to help.

Ok @HectorLooi now that I fixed it the proper way, next time maybe I'll have to try and dig up that shortcut video 

[firebynight]

BTW, @HSL (or anyone else who may be interested), here's a photo of the SW-200-1 setting lever. It appears to me the stem holding nob on the Sellita part seems shorter than the one on the ETA from your photo. I now understand why it can so easily get pushed out of alignment!

[Jimg1969]

On 9/2/2020 at 4:20 PM, HSL said:

Must say I haven't had the bad luck as some of these guys who moved the whole barrel drum by pushing in the stem.
If one is careful and push the button with the screwdriver in the slot while taking it out you shouldn’t get anything misaligned.
But if you push to deep the keyless work might get messed up. The best way to solve that mishap is to fix the keyless and check the stop lever is in place.
I guess the SW200 has a stop lever just as the 2824-2, if the keyless gets messed up it might also affect the stop lever which will block the watch from running. Think that is actually what happens.

The 28XX and the 2824-2 might also have different stems. But if you are using the stem for 2824-2 then it would be OK even without filing on it.

If my memory isn’t failing me there should be a post here somewhere on how to fix the keyless.

I'm wondering if I have the issue with the barrel drum. I thought maybe the yoke was out of the sliding pinion so I disassembled the keyless works. This was new to me and all I have ever done before was change a dial and hands so I was veeeeerrry nervous. I believe I reassembled it properly, I used the guide here, but still having the same issue. The stem doesn't lock in properly and after reassembly it the winding, date setting and time setting still won't work properly and the stem still comes out. I don't have the ability to go into the movement any further and will probably have to find someone to help me. No watchmakers in the area and all the people that say they repair watches only either change batteries or replace movements as a whole.

My movement is a selitta sw200 and I don't want to spend a ton to have it repaired and may have to just get a replacement movement. 

On a side note when I disassembled the keyless works I found the setting lever jumper screw had only half the head. Looks like someone snapped off half when they tightened it at the factory and just left it as is... I was quite surprised to see that. Here is a picture before disassembly 

Also does the sliding pinion sit on top of another lever. I think I saw that on another video. If so is it possible for that lever to be out of place causing the issues I have?

 

 

Any advice is appreciated.

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Jimg1969