Canon Pinion Grease Alternative？

[EatPeach]

So the most recommended canon pinion grease is Moebius 9501. Problem with the grease is they sell with a 20ml syringe. I'm not a professional watchmaker. I think it'll take eternal for me to consume that 20ml grease. What I do have is molycote dx and hp1300. The former can safely replace 9501 when it comes to keyless work. I've been using hp1300 for conon pinion to service my own watch. Although they work in a sense that the canon pinion function smoothly, I do know it's not a grease. It troubles me. As for the molycote the biggest worry about it is that it's not a typical grease for watch so it might be dry quickly inside the canon pinion and stuck it.( just a guess, i dont know things about lurbricants) Just wondering if anyone had done some test on Molycote DX especially the use on canon pinion. And perhaps some other good lurbricants that don't have to be sell with a hug amount of it? Thank you!

[BrianB]

Having just recently completed Lesson 2 of Mark's Watch Repair course, therein he appears to indicate that the Molykote DX is interchangeable with Moebius 9501. That's what I used on the cannon pinion for the movement I disassembled and reassembled as part of the class. I'm confident Mark wouldn't tell us it is a permissible substitute if it would cause problems.

I have attached a portion of a screen grab from one of the videos below.

There's another online watch repair course that sells tool sets that are paired with their lessons. While I have not taken that other course I did notice that in the lubricants that come in their tool sets the cannon pinion grease they provide is the Molykote DX.

[EatPeach]

24 minutes ago, BrianB said:

Having just recently completed Lesson 2 of Mark's Watch Repair course, therein he appears to indicate that the Molykote DX is interchangeable with Moebius 9501. That's what I used on the cannon pinion for the movement I disassembled and reassembled as part of the class. I'm confident Mark wouldn't tell us it is a permissible substitute if it would cause problems.

I have attached a portion of a screen grab from one of the videos below.

There's another online watch repair course that sells tool sets that are paired with their lessons. While I have not taken that other course I did notice that in the lubricants that come in their tool sets the cannon pinion grease they provide is the Molykote DX.

Oh that's good to know. Any defeat about Molykote compare to 9501/9504？

[BrianB]

1 hour ago, EatPeach said:

Oh that's good to know. Any defeat about Molykote compare to 9501/9504？

I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you rephrase the question?

[EatPeach]

Just now, BrianB said:

I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you rephrase the question?

I'm very sorry. I wanna type defect. Just wanna know if the shell life and the performence of the molykote in this particular use are worse than the 9501/9504.

[BrianB]

1 minute ago, EatPeach said:

I'm very sorry. I wanna type defect. Just wanna know if the shell life and the performence of the molykote in this particular use are worse than the 9501/9504.

Good question. I'd be interested to know the answer as well. Perhaps one of the pros here can weigh in. That said, a professional watchmaker would probably use the 9501 just because spending $70 for a 10 mL syringe isn't a big deal when you're charging for your services. But for someone who is just learning and playing, that's a big spend for a quantity of grease that you'll never use in a whole lifetime of hobbyist work, much less before it expires.

[EatPeach]

1 minute ago, BrianB said:

Good question. I'd be interested to know the answer as well. Perhaps one of the pros here can weigh in. That said, a professional watchmaker would probably use the 9501 just because spending $70 for a 10 mL syringe isn't a big deal when you're charging for your services. But for someone who is just learning and playing, that's a big spend for a quantity of grease that you'll never use in a whole lifetime of hobbyist work, much less before it expires.

Yeah I'm also considering buying some decant from local watchmakers. But there's rumor on the internet said they are selling expired decant of lurbricants. So I haven't made up my mind about this. If I can get a decent quality decant like 2ml of the grease. It's a nice deal. But for a 10 or 20ml syringe it's way too much for me especially consider the lurbricant only work for keyless and canon pinion.

[JohnR725]

13 minutes ago, EatPeach said:

But for a 10 or 20ml syringe it's way too much for me especially consider the lurbricant only work for keyless and canon pinion

Is it really the quantity that's bothering you or is that the price? We have the syringe it work physically it doesn't seem to be that big so storage shouldn't be an issue. Is synthetic it should last at least if we ignore the expiring date should last forever C not going to have to buy it again. Oh there is another use be size setting parts the local college has the students lubricating their mainsprings with it. Yes the same mainsprings that we were told not to be lubricated because they somehow lubricate themselves they are taught to use that on the mainsprings.

Other ways to solve the problem would be let's look at the past when I was in school we used 8300 All the setting parts and the mainspring. The only catch to that is school tends to be short term you just have to pass a test or make the instructor happy and nobody's going be will looking at this watch in five years and wondering why disintegrated. Plus I believe all of the 8000 series lubricants are not synthetic usually a mineral oils and some organic stuff so their life is going to be shorter.

Then my personal favorite has always been Nye PML Stem Grease W 10S I have two links below.

http://www.ofrei.com/page245.html

http://www.horologist.com/rolex_lubrication.htm

Than a suspicion on my parts is that this B-52 grease would probably work fine for setting parts also

https://timesavers.com/i-8945270-etsyntha-b52-grease-7-gram.html

Then PDF attached more lubrication suggestions

 

 

 

 

BHI The Practical Lubrication of Clocks and Watches Version 2008.0.pdf

[EatPeach]

3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Is it really the quantity that's bothering you or is that the price? We have the syringe it work physically it doesn't seem to be that big so storage shouldn't be an issue. Is synthetic it should last at least if we ignore the expiring date should last forever C not going to have to buy it again. Oh there is another use be size setting parts the local college has the students lubricating their mainsprings with it. Yes the same mainsprings that we were told not to be lubricated because they somehow lubricate themselves they are taught to use that on the mainsprings.

Other ways to solve the problem would be let's look at the past when I was in school we used 8300 All the setting parts and the mainspring. The only catch to that is school tends to be short term you just have to pass a test or make the instructor happy and nobody's going be will looking at this watch in five years and wondering why disintegrated. Plus I believe all of the 8000 series lubricants are not synthetic usually a mineral oils and some organic stuff so their life is going to be shorter.

Then my personal favorite has always been Nye PML Stem Grease W 10S I have two links below.

http://www.ofrei.com/page245.html

http://www.horologist.com/rolex_lubrication.htm

Than a suspicion on my parts is that this B-52 grease would probably work fine for setting parts also

https://timesavers.com/i-8945270-etsyntha-b52-grease-7-gram.html

Then PDF attached more lubrication suggestions

 

 

 

 

BHI The Practical Lubrication of Clocks and Watches Version 2008.0.pdf 530.41 kB · 0 downloads

Maybe both. I brought 9010 9415 and Hp1300. I'm lucky if I can service 10 movement per year. So basically those moebius bottle it's gonna stay there for my entire life.(Particularly that 9415....looks like that 2ml gonna nail down millions of movements) I really dont wanna buy another big quantity lurbricant especially that big. I mean way too much. Thanks for the suggestion though. I‘ll try Molykote on my personal watch first. And I'll see how the performence is.

[EatPeach]

10 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Is it really the quantity that's bothering you or is that the price? We have the syringe it work physically it doesn't seem to be that big so storage shouldn't be an issue. Is synthetic it should last at least if we ignore the expiring date should last forever C not going to have to buy it again. Oh there is another use be size setting parts the local college has the students lubricating their mainsprings with it. Yes the same mainsprings that we were told not to be lubricated because they somehow lubricate themselves they are taught to use that on the mainsprings.

Other ways to solve the problem would be let's look at the past when I was in school we used 8300 All the setting parts and the mainspring. The only catch to that is school tends to be short term you just have to pass a test or make the instructor happy and nobody's going be will looking at this watch in five years and wondering why disintegrated. Plus I believe all of the 8000 series lubricants are not synthetic usually a mineral oils and some organic stuff so their life is going to be shorter.

Then my personal favorite has always been Nye PML Stem Grease W 10S I have two links below.

http://www.ofrei.com/page245.html

http://www.horologist.com/rolex_lubrication.htm

Than a suspicion on my parts is that this B-52 grease would probably work fine for setting parts also

https://timesavers.com/i-8945270-etsyntha-b52-grease-7-gram.html

Then PDF attached more lubrication suggestions

 

 

 

 

BHI The Practical Lubrication of Clocks and Watches Version 2008.0.pdf 530.41 kB · 0 downloads

Oh just another crazy idea pops out. I have way to much 9415 which just right to be a grease in a strange way. Does it work?

[JohnR725]

59 minutes ago, EatPeach said:

I brought 9010 9415 and Hp1300. I'm lucky if I can service 10 movement per year. So basically those moebius bottle it's gonna stay there for my entire life.(Particularly that 9415....looks like that 2ml gonna nail down millions of movements)

What I found when I was servicing a limited quantity of watches at home was those little tiny bottles last a very very long time. I think I only came close to running out of one of the bottles after way way more than 10 years.

Then I went to a lecture given by the head watchmaker of a chain of service centers found in jewelry stores. Is explaining the importance of replacing your oil on a regular basis changing the oil in the cups. The concern is contamination how you get the oil out of the bottle each time you do it let's assume that little bottle last 10 years 10 years of inserting something in is going to contaminate the oil conceivably to be very very careful how he do that. Or my favorite I remember from the lecture he would occasionally inspect shops where they would send work and the dust bunnies in someone's oil cup did not please him at all.

Then there was the other problem the reason why we have dates now on the oil. Previously without a date a bottle it was just made yesterday versus 10 years ago conceivably would look identical. Sometimes the only way can tell how old some of the oil was because the labels have changed over time. So now we have dates which is good if you using any of the oils like the 8000 series because they have natural properties and their life isn't as long as synthetic.

So personally for home use after going to lecture replacing all of my oils at several hundred dollars. Debbie who runs the material house is aware of how cheap watchmakers are and when I said I had several hundred dollars to replace my oils I think she thought I was crazy because everyone bitches about the price of oil. But I do have to agree with the quantity at that time the HP oils were new the bottle was big and if it lasts forever several generations a watchmakers would really use my bottle of oil.

 

59 minutes ago, EatPeach said:

Oh just another crazy idea pops out. I have way to much 9415 which just right to be a grease in a strange way. Does it work?

I met a watchmaker ones who did talk about using it everywhere. I think the only way to find out is to try it in the watch I don't really see an issue. It's a grease it's meant to stay in place by theory normal grease should be cheaper but if you already have and why not.

[EatPeach]

4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

What I found when I was servicing a limited quantity of watches at home was those little tiny bottles last a very very long time. I think I only came close to running out of one of the bottles after way way more than 10 years.

Then I went to a lecture given by the head watchmaker of a chain of service centers found in jewelry stores. Is explaining the importance of replacing your oil on a regular basis changing the oil in the cups. The concern is contamination how you get the oil out of the bottle each time you do it let's assume that little bottle last 10 years 10 years of inserting something in is going to contaminate the oil conceivably to be very very careful how he do that. Or my favorite I remember from the lecture he would occasionally inspect shops where they would send work and the dust bunnies in someone's oil cup did not please him at all.

Then there was the other problem the reason why we have dates now on the oil. Previously without a date a bottle it was just made yesterday versus 10 years ago conceivably would look identical. Sometimes the only way can tell how old some of the oil was because the labels have changed over time. So now we have dates which is good if you using any of the oils like the 8000 series because they have natural properties and their life isn't as long as synthetic.

So personally for home use after going to lecture replacing all of my oils at several hundred dollars. Debbie who runs the material house is aware of how cheap watchmakers are and when I said I had several hundred dollars to replace my oils I think she thought I was crazy because everyone bitches about the price of oil. But I do have to agree with the quantity at that time the HP oils were new the bottle was big and if it lasts forever several generations a watchmakers would really use my bottle of oil.

 

I met a watchmaker ones who did talk about using it everywhere. I think the only way to find out is to try it in the watch I don't really see an issue. It's a grease it's meant to stay in place by theory normal grease should be cheaper but if you already have and why not.

Thank you. So let's say I have a oil cup and it's not seal very tightly, in that case how long I got to change my oil? I dont use it quite often. It'll be like once a week now cause most of my watches are taking good care of. And for the little bottle I guess I dont have to put it into a fridge right? Keeping it in the original moebius metal case in a room temp would be good? If the oil can really last 10years and more and think the investment is good. 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, EatPeach said:

Thank you. So let's say I have a oil cup and it's not seal very tightly, in that case how long I got to change my oil? I dont use it quite often. It'll be like once a week now cause most of my watches are taking good care of. And for the little bottle I guess I dont have to put it into a fridge right? Keeping it in the original moebius metal case in a room temp would be good? If the oil can really last 10years and more and think the investment is good. 

Unfortunately I don't have an answer other than an educated guess. Personally at home were I do watches few and far between I don't worry about the oil in the cup unless I noticed dust in Pears etc. as long as it looks clean to me it's fine. Running in production shops they change it either daily or conceivably weekly but they have an infinite budgets.

I keep my oil in one of the drawers in the bench out of light I had heard light was bad. Thinking about it now that the tech sheets are readily available on the website was looking they have a temperature range for the use the oil but on the bottom of the page they have this this was on the 9010 " To a temperature range of use of that oil is   -30 °C to +70 °C. Then the recommended storage found on the very bottom of the page "We advise keeping Moebius products in their original packaging in a clean and dry place, protected from light, ideally at a temper-ature of 15 to 26 °C. After opening we recommend keeping the products for a maximum of 12 months." There is something I hadn't noticed before the last sentence the oil supposed to last six years but now if you open your bottle it's one year? Maybe it should be just send your credit cards to us and maybe your bank account numbers and will take care of the rest for you.

So back to my educated guess yes keeping it in the metal container I think would be good keeping at room temperature or maybe a little bit cooler don't remember where I saw don't freeze it but based on the temperatures above doesn't seem like that's can be an issue but I'd still just keep it out of light and not the hot room.

I have heard of their oil going bad I had see the discussion were clock shop is going through a bottle of D5 every month. One month they got a bad bottle and basically all of clocks for the month came back. The D5 has natural substances in it and it's back to not having a date where it's conceivable that this was a bottle that could've been many years old.

At least one thing now providing you have a timing machine if you're servicing your own watches and suddenly find that it looks like total crap and you suspect the lubrication at least the timing machine it's going to give you a clue about that. Just as if from time to time you check your own personal watches on the timing machine as to how they're doing and keep a log that would also give you a clue about things like lubrication. That is if you are obsessive about things I can a mellowed out in other than being obsessive at the time I don't worry about these things anymore.I have so many other annoying things to worry about.

Other things to worry about though is if you have the plastic oil cups I have a concern about being plastic whether the oils could react with the plastic. Then with plastic if you insert your metal oiler is a possibility of scraping the plastic generating particles floating around in your oil which is undesirable. If you are really obsessed the used to have a get oil cups I might have one of those but I think all the rest of mine are glass. So a little glass cup in a wooden base usually with the wood top.

[Flubber]

Regarding your question on Molykote DX. I feel pretty confident in using Molykote and according to nobswatchmaker, Molykote has been used for a long time though it wasn't originally meant for watches. He also states that Rolex and Breitling used Molykote but discontinued the use because it contaminates the cleaning solution.

 

https://nobswatchmaker.com/blog/art-of-oiling-in-watchmaking

[EatPeach]

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Unfortunately I don't have an answer other than an educated guess. Personally at home were I do watches few and far between I don't worry about the oil in the cup unless I noticed dust in Pears etc. as long as it looks clean to me it's fine. Running in production shops they change it either daily or conceivably weekly but they have an infinite budgets.

I keep my oil in one of the drawers in the bench out of light I had heard light was bad. Thinking about it now that the tech sheets are readily available on the website was looking they have a temperature range for the use the oil but on the bottom of the page they have this this was on the 9010 " To a temperature range of use of that oil is   -30 °C to +70 °C. Then the recommended storage found on the very bottom of the page "We advise keeping Moebius products in their original packaging in a clean and dry place, protected from light, ideally at a temper-ature of 15 to 26 °C. After opening we recommend keeping the products for a maximum of 12 months." There is something I hadn't noticed before the last sentence the oil supposed to last six years but now if you open your bottle it's one year? Maybe it should be just send your credit cards to us and maybe your bank account numbers and will take care of the rest for you.

So back to my educated guess yes keeping it in the metal container I think would be good keeping at room temperature or maybe a little bit cooler don't remember where I saw don't freeze it but based on the temperatures above doesn't seem like that's can be an issue but I'd still just keep it out of light and not the hot room.

I have heard of their oil going bad I had see the discussion were clock shop is going through a bottle of D5 every month. One month they got a bad bottle and basically all of clocks for the month came back. The D5 has natural substances in it and it's back to not having a date where it's conceivable that this was a bottle that could've been many years old.

At least one thing now providing you have a timing machine if you're servicing your own watches and suddenly find that it looks like total crap and you suspect the lubrication at least the timing machine it's going to give you a clue about that. Just as if from time to time you check your own personal watches on the timing machine as to how they're doing and keep a log that would also give you a clue about things like lubrication. That is if you are obsessive about things I can a mellowed out in other than being obsessive at the time I don't worry about these things anymore.I have so many other annoying things to worry about.

Other things to worry about though is if you have the plastic oil cups I have a concern about being plastic whether the oils could react with the plastic. Then with plastic if you insert your metal oiler is a possibility of scraping the plastic generating particles floating around in your oil which is undesirable. If you are really obsessed the used to have a get oil cups I might have one of those but I think all the rest of mine are glass. So a little glass cup in a wooden base usually with the wood top.

Thank you！ very informative.

[EatPeach]

6 hours ago, Flubber said:

Regarding your question on Molykote DX. I feel pretty confident in using Molykote and according to nobswatchmaker, Molykote has been used for a long time though it wasn't originally meant for watches. He also states that Rolex and Breitling used Molykote but discontinued the use because it contaminates the cleaning solution.

 

https://nobswatchmaker.com/blog/art-of-oiling-in-watchmaking

I see. Then I should feel confident to use Molykote. I dont think the contamination to the cleaning solution would trouble me cuz I got a lot of it. It's very convenience to change the solutions.

[rodabod]

Hope I’m not throwing a cat amongst the pigeons, but: it’s only a canon pinion. Somewhere between a heavy oil or grease will do a fine job. It’s critical that the part is lubricated, but it’s function is quite crude, in the same way that setting the friction by pinching the pinion is also quite crude. 

[EatPeach]

1 hour ago, rodabod said:

Hope I’m not throwing a cat amongst the pigeons, but: it’s only a canon pinion. Somewhere between a heavy oil or grease will do a fine job. It’s critical that the part is lubricated, but it’s function is quite crude, in the same way that setting the friction by pinching the pinion is also quite crude. 

Yeah, I guess you're right. The grease only comes to work when we adjust the time. 

[JohnR725]

I think some of the watch companies do sometimes recommend heavy oils you have quite a fluctuation of what is recommended today versus yesterday.. The only real concern I can think of is  you do want to make sure whatever you put on the Canon pinion does not get pushed down and next  with the center wheel lubrication. But otherwise probably just about any grease  including automotive would work. As long as it's sympathetic and doesn't disintegrate.