Experimental dial finishing thoughts

[spectre6000]

I've been reading several of the threads on dial refinishing, and had some ideas from some of the other crafts I dabble in. There's enough precedent that I know both will work beautifully, and possibly even better than some of the things I've seen. I wouldn't at all be surprised to find that either or both were even common at one point in history...

Tinted shellac:

I have a handful of powdered natural pigments in my shop, plus some Prussian Blue (due to its historical significance). When these are carefully mixed with shellac, and then used in a French Polish, you get some gorgeous results. Shellac adheres wonderfully to metal (as we all know from affixing pallet stones... or in my case reading about doing so), and the finish is beautiful and durable.

Piano black/Japanning/Patent process:

Processed linseed/flax oil combined with the above mentioned pigments gets you Piano black, Japanning, or patent process depending on what you put it on (wood, metal, leather respectively). One of those common applications is metal, so we know it'll adhere. All look very nice and are known to be durable. Unlike the shellac, which is brittle and will craze (which is sometimes desirable), these finishes are somewhat flexible.

For both of these, the traditional color is black (often with a hint of blue), but there's nothing about the pigments that do anything in the final product other than just be pigments. Natural colors (where I focus) are admittedly somewhat limited, but with modern synthetic pigments there aren't really any limits. Indices and the like would need to be applied, painted, or whatever after the fact, but this isn't new ground.

Thoughts? Any known historical examples?

[AndyHull]

Miniature paintings on watch and clock dials have been a feature of expensive high end pieces for a very long time.

Not only that, but there are still some really high quality pieces being produced around the world.

https://watchesbysjx.com/2019/03/qin-gan-chinese-watchmaker.html

You might find some inspiration in a few of these links.
 

https://thepeak.com.my/watches-jewellery/intricate-dial-paintings-hermes-watches-miniature-masterpieces/

https://masterhorologer.com/2017/04/04/patek-philippe-calatrava-azulejos-ref-5089g-limited-edition-watches-with-miniature-azulejo-paintings-on-enamel-dial-ref-5089g-061-the-barge-and-5089g-062-the-porter/

https://www.covetfoundation.com/events/baselworld-2019-miniature-marquetry-art-in-haute-horlogerie/

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/jaquet-droz-enamel-dial-painting/2/

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/vacheron-constantin-metiers-dart-savoirs-enlumines-watches/

The use of natural pigments and finishing techniques, could make for some really beautiful creations.

Natural colours are generally more subtle than modern pigments, as I know from the world of textiles (which my wife is heavily in to).

They also need to be handled with care to ensure that they are well "fixed", in order to avoid oxidation and damage by light, or biological action (moulds, bacteria and to forth).

Shellac could be employed as a binder, as it comes in a variety of shades, which could be mixed with woad, oak gall ink, lichen based dyestuffs and so forth. Even such every day things as onions can be a source of pigments.

https://www.diynatural.com/natural-fabric-dyes/

You will also need suitable mordants and fixatives for natural pigments, and that is a whole subject of its own. Time for some serious experimentation I would suggest. Let us know how you progress, I'd love to see the finished results and of course any failures on the road, as they are often an important part of the learning process.

[spectre6000]

Not quite what I meant. If one were to piano black a dial, it would have that hard glossy black like enamel, but with depth. It'd be even deeper with the shellac, but brittleness and crazing are potential issues. If a dial were Japanned, it would be a cool matte black, and be nearly indestructible. I recently experimented with applying a french polish over a very shallow carving; engraving a dial and doing the same would result in a really cool monochrome cloisonné appearance.

[AndyHull]

11 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

Not quite what I meant. If one were to piano black a dial, it would have that hard glossy black like enamel, but with depth. It'd be even deeper with the shellac, but brittleness and crazing are potential issues. If a dial were Japanned, it would be a cool matte black, and be nearly indestructible. I recently experimented with applying a french polish over a very shallow carving; engraving a dial and doing the same would result in a really cool monochrome cloisonné appearance.

I'd love to see what you have done so far, it sounds like an avenue well worth exploring. What tools, method and magnification did you use to engrave the dial?

[spectre6000]

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm only just getting started in the watchmaking world. The carving was in wood. It was a laser engraved topographical map of the canyon I live in on a walnut shingle in an iPhone case. It obviously didn't last long in my pocket with keys and such, but the concept (French polish with depth) was proven. If I were to do it in a watch dial, I'd have to school up on engraving first and get some practice in. More near term, I'd probably start with a chemically etched design rather than engraved... 

I'm an extreme novice on this front, but have a long list of other skills along similar lines. I was throwing out an idea I had while reading about someone's attempt at an enameled dial. These finishes are similar in a lot of ways, and I thought it might be worth consideration. I'd be more than happy to collaborate with someone who has the skills I'm missing between now and getting my feet under me, and I'll be experimenting as I find suitable projects to experiment on (I have one in mind already).