Pocket Watch Movement Problem??

[Seth]

Hi there,Can anyone help me with a problem I have with an English Lever Movement.I thought that the mainspring had broken but on investigation that was all ok so I decided to take the movement apart and look further into this problem and while apart I decided to clean everything before reassembly and oiling.Under the top plate there is a sprung lever assembly that is held against the center wheel pinion and when I try to wind the mainspring up all of a sudden the pinions disengage and all power in the mainspring is lost??Has anyone any thoughts or ideas on my little problem,any help would be gratefully received.I enclose a photo of this lever/spring assembly under the top plate that connects with the center wheel pinion.Regards,Seth.

[FLwatchguy73]

I've not encountered this component before on my English watches, Do you have more photos of it? Also, did you take photos as you were disassembling the watch? At first guess, it looks like it may be the click assembly.

[watchweasol]

It looks like some type of stop work. not one I have encountered before though.

[Seth]

Hi there,The only photos I took of the movement before I took it to pieces are of where the position of the banking pins were as they are adjustable and of the balance assembly as you will see that the small bracket that the hairspring is pinned to was broken through and if you look at my original photo of the lever assembly you will see that the screw that holds the hairspring stud/bracket was broken in the hole and someone had tried to dig it out.So I purchased a Bergeon Screw Removal Tool and bits from Cousins and finally got the screw out.

[FLwatchguy73]

Is the red arrow pointing to the bottom of the winding arbor? If yes, it sounds like either the click is bad or just not correctly engaging the arbor.

[FLwatchguy73]

Doing some more investigating here, does this movement say "Reversing Pinion" on it anywhere?

[Seth]

Hi there,Firstly many thanks for your replies,I have not seen "Reversing Pinion" on it anywhere.Your RED ARROW on my photo is only on the pivot for the large brass pinion wheel that is shown.The mainspring barrel goes into the large cutout and the teeth on the barrel engage with the pinion wheel shown which in turn engages with the small pinion on the center wheel shaft.If you look at my photo the screw which is almost hidden by the pinion wheel is in a slot on this brass "L" shaped lever which is pivoted by the screw at the bottom of the lever.At the top and its half hidden is a polished steel spring which rests on the lever keeping it under tension.If the lever and pinion assembly is not engaged with the center wheel pinion then you cannot wind the mainspring.If the lever and pinion assembly is engaged with the center wheel pinion then you can wind the mainspring but the movement is SOLID and will not move. If the pinion assembly is disengaged from the center wheel and no power on the mainspring then the train is FREE and can be turned with tweezers.Hope this helps as I have 2 more movements exactly the same mechanism which I got from Ebay for spares.Regards,Seth.

[FLwatchguy73]

This looks like it may be a reversing pinion movement. The English developed this system because people were used to fusee movements which wind counterclockwise. This mechanism gave them the opportunity to wind in either direction. Do you have photos of the other two movements assembled? I can confirm by those. Thank you.

[Seth]

Hi there, I will take some photos of the other two movements tomorrow when I'm back in my little workshop where I spend a lot of my retirement time and post the photos on here if that's okay with you.Regards,Seth.

[FLwatchguy73]

Absolutely! No worries, I'm not going anywhere, lol. I like a good mystery anyway. 

[vinn3]

could that spring screwed on be  upside down?    vin

[FLwatchguy73]

7 minutes ago, vinn3 said:

could that spring screwed on be  upside down?    vin

I was thinking that was a possibility. I'm tempted to purchase one of these movements and learn what it's all about, very intriguing concept..

[Seth]

Hi there ,As promised I have taken a few photos of the movements the first is the two movements side by side,2 is the back of the movement,3 is a view looking at this lever assembly with the pinion engaged with the center wheel pinion,4 is another view of this lever assembly,5 is a view of the top plate with all the wheels and escapement lever in position so you can see how this lever assembly with the pinion engages with the center wheel pinion,the mainspring barrel teeth then engage with this pinion/lever assembly,6this is a view of the lever removed from the top plate and you can see the detent spring which I have left in position on the plate.Hope this is of help,Regards Seth.

[FLwatchguy73]

First off, thank you for the photos @Seth. So yes, this is definitely a reversing pinion movement. As far as the specifics of the reversing mechanism, I'm unsure, But my curiosity is piqued, I'm going to get one for myself, just so I can figure it out and perhaps learn how to help you as well. It looks as if H.Samuel is still in business, over 150 years. Impressive

[Seth]

Hi there, Many thanks for your help and reply I have looked at my copies of Daniels Watchmaking and F W Britain's Watch and Clockmaker's Handbook and there is nothing about this reversing pinion in either.I have my late grandfather's H Samuel pocket watch and that's running fine I have just opened the silver case and looked at the movement after taking the dustcover off and that's the same movement with the same setup.All I have had to do to this watch was fit a replacement acrylic crystal as the original glass was cracked.I enclose a photo of this watch taken just before this email.Will look forward to hearing from you in the future Regards,Seth.

[Seth]

Hi there to all, Further to my little problem regarding this "Reversing Pinion Assembly" I have received some very interesting information from another watchrepairer here in the UK and he enclosed a copy of the original patent application for this assembly which I am enclosing for your information.Regards to all,Seth.

[FLwatchguy73]

After much curiosity and homework on this matter, I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a nice example of similar watch. It was originally sold by the same company (H Samuel) and appears to be of the same time period. Mine does say "Climax Trip Action Patent" I'm fairly certain it has an identical mechanism as @Seth's. Though it does sound a bit naughty, lol. Unfortunately no pictures of the movement, but I googled "Climax Trip Action Patent" and the last picture is the result, which looks promising. I will update when mine arrives from the UK and I've had a chance to disassemble it and inspect the mechanism.

[FLwatchguy73]

Good evening folks. The first of 2 H. Samuel watches I purchased arrived today. On the surface, this one seemed identical to the OPs but after tearing it down I discovered it was not the same. This one has a safety pinion just like American pocket watches do. And as it turned out, it needed it. The mainspring was busted and had tripped the pinion. This one does have an extra gear, so at first glance it appears the same as @Seth's, unfortunately not. I'm still trying to decipher it's purpose, my first guess is it allows the watch to be wound counter clockwise. I do want to source a replacement mainspring, so if anyone has some researched a replacement for one similar or has one, please let me know. I will be reassembling this and if I can get it ticking with pressure on the barrel, I'll share more photos.

[FLwatchguy73]

 

Good evening folks. @Seth my new watch arrived today, and I think I may have solved your problem. In the picture below, the arm that i outlined in red needs to slide over in the direction of the Green arrow, where it is currently in the picture is the "tripped" position and therefore the gear does not engage the center wheel pinion. This is apart of that safety mechanism we were discussing. In the video, you can see it in action.

Here is the video of the action

[FLwatchguy73]

@Seth, Please let me know if this solves your dilemma.

[FLwatchguy73]

After assembly I noticed you can reset the mechanism without disassembling the entire watch. You can use the point of a screw driver to push it back in place. 

It is a handsome watch. Good taste @Seth

[FLwatchguy73]

Below is an illustration of a typical English lever. The bit in question is referred to as the guard pin, the arrow points to it, check that to see if it's in a bind.

Edited April 15, 2020 by FLwatchguy73