Dugena 1040 - Otero 48 Techical Guide

[Klassiker]

Anyone know of a technical guide for this calibre or similar? I searched all the places I can think of and found nothing. It has a couple of unusual features which make it interesting to me. There is an automatic winding mechanism which works on a similar principle to Seiko's magic fingers, but more complicated in execution. Here the "fingers" are separate parts which sit on top of one another on a common pivot. They are held in engagement with the reduction wheel (?) by separate springs. The reduction wheel has a slipping clutch mechanism, which means that the mainspring doesn't need to slip in the barrel.

If anyone has any tips on the correct lubrication of these parts I'd be grateful.

Here's the lever mechanism:

 

And here's the clutch:

 

 

[watchweasol]

Hi Have a look on Dr Ranfft he shows bothe Dugena 1040/otero 48

[Klassiker]

Hi watchweasol,

I checked Ranfft. That's where I got the information about the mainspring. But there are no data sheets, parts lists or lubrication plans there. Or am I missing something? I'll get by without, but it would be nice to have. If I have any specific problems, I can make another post.

[watchweasol]

Hi   I have had a good root round and tech data on dugena1040 or the Otero 48 seems to be in short supply. They seem pretty cheap going on ebay for around the £25 for the movement. I will keep on cruising.     cheers 

[Klassiker]

Well then I got a bargain on this one. It was sold as defective, but the movement seems basically OK apart from a missing screw. The defect was a broken lug on the case, but the dial and hands are OK.

[watchweasol]

I checked with cousins uk they have some parts available                               

[Klassiker]

Otero is/was a German company, so I trawled through some German forums. The clutch is known as the Oterotest mechanism. I only found one piece of advice on lubrication from someone who had worked on one, and that was "don't". Oiling makes it slip too easily.

I still I wasn't able to find any technical documents though. Interesting that Cousins lists the Otero part numbers (in brackets) but also doesn't have a parts list available to download.

[watchweasol]

Hi After quite some trawling the net thats all I found out too and precious little technical information. Although there seemed to be many to be had on ebay.

[Klassiker]

Well thanks for the time and effort. I'll have to manage without. I'm happy to share my experience working on it with anyone who needs help.

[watchweasol]

Hi  My pleasure.   cheers

[Shane]

On 2/8/2020 at 9:02 AM, Klassiker said:

I searched all the places I can think of and found nothing. It has a couple of unusual features which make it interesting to me.

Klassiker,

I am also working on a Otero 48 that I picked up in very poor condition and have also found the frustrating lack of supporting information you spoke of.  Since the last post was some time ago, would you or others have stumbled across any documentation that you/they would now be willing to share?

I'm also open to any productive suggestions on what can be done with the dial for this watch.

(I may post my dial query as an independent subject with a higher resolution photo in the near future.)

Thank you all for your time and attention.

Shane

Edited July 22, 2021 by Shane

[jdm]

3 hours ago, Shane said:

I'm also working on a Otero 48 that I picked up in very poor condition and have also found the frustrating lack of supporting information you spoke of.  Since the last post was some time ago, would you or others have stumbled across any documentation that you/they would now be willing to share?

 

The reason why you can't find nice exploded diagrams with all lubrication points noted, part numbered in order of reassembly, etc is because back then, these were not produced at all. A parts list is all one could expect. Watchmakers were supposed to know their trade well, also basing themselves on the fact that no major difference was to be expected between one make and another.

[Klassiker]

Sorry, I never did find any documents, not even a parts list. I may have taken photos during the assembly and disassembly if you are struggling with anything in particular. You have your work cut out to bring that one back to life, I think.

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, jdm said:

The reason why you can't find nice exploded diagrams with all lubrication points noted, part numbered in order of reassembly, etc is because back then, these were not produced at all. A parts list is all one could expect.

auto this really depends upon the individual company unfortunately. Some companies had a really good after sales technical literature and support. Others barely acknowledged they just want to sell watches they didn't really give a darn. Then even if they did have after sales service documentation so my companies just had parts lists because they did assume you would know how to service the watch. Sometimes if there were special stuff there might be a technical memo on not the lubricate something but pens on the company. A unfortunate reality and watch repair is that every single watch does not have a complete service bulletin or even a parts list were lucky to get what we can find.

The link below has the parts list for your movement.

usually in the bestfit system a name such as OTERO  get shortened to three letters. As why you don't see the name you just see the abbreviation. It also notice there's no factory part numbers or very few they're all bestfit numbers. That gives you a clue that there probably wasn't site official parts list anywhere.

Oh and then there is the other little problem even if maybe there was a parts list maybe they'd never distributed to the watchmaker maybe it only went to the material houses. Which was unfortunately common with some companies the watchmaker never would have the numbers they had to go to the material house. Which unfortunately is a problem if you don't have a material house that has a complete technical library

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=OTE_48

 

[jdm]

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

auto this really depends upon the individual company unfortunately. Some companies had a really good after sales technical literature and support.

I suppose you're talking about Rolex and Omega. The latter is still updating the technical document for the 565 which ended production 50 years ago. However from the look of the 3D drawings it has been made in the 2000 not back then. That make sense to me, exploded views and oiling notes are not needed to produce a mov.t, neither to work on it if one knows what he's doing.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

I suppose you're talking about Rolex and Omega.

actually I was thinking about this more from a historical point of view? For instance American companies they produced technical literature. I have physical parts books from Illinois, Waltham and Elgin. some of the later ones are available as PDFs. So if you look at these early books all the spare parts are listed information is conveyed on how to order the parts what you need to do to get them. They understood after sales service that helping the watchmaker. I know that the Elgin watch company of it had a spare parts department right into the 70s until they phased out of watches. So we have early examples of parts lists were available and limited technical information you don't really see that until more like the 40s and beyond.

But thinking about it I don't recall ever seeing an American watch company have a guide on how to service an American pocket watch for instance? That's because they assume that whoever was working on their watches actually knew what they're doing.

so from a historical point of view not just the American companies but others have produced spare parts lists. Later on they might've even add something on servicing perhaps. We even have companies today that you can go there website and download technical literature with servicing information. Unfortunately that does not include every single company some hate watchmakers and won't share their literature or the spare parts. Which means you don't need this service guide because you're not going to get their spare parts.

2 hours ago, jdm said:

The latter is still updating the technical document for the 565 which ended production 50 years ago. However from the look of the 3D drawings it has been made in the 2000 not back then. That make sense to me, exploded views and oiling notes are not needed to produce a mov.t, nether to work on it if one knows what he's doing.

Omega's an interesting company for literature. Many years ago I bought out a person who used to sell Omega watches and they repaired them so I have literature from the 50s. What was interesting with the literature is what's not in the literature? As you've already pointed out they don't always have a step-by-step guide of how to service the watch?

What you do find is they have things like 1957 number three technical guide oiling Omega watches. It's an interesting document that explains how to clean the watch. How to lubricate or the basic points of where they are lubricated quantities types. Even talks a little about the different types of oils at that time they still had organic oils so why they're good and/or bad. It even covers surface treatment why they're using it etc.

But as you mentioned is the things that are missing that are interesting. For instance because it was handy to grab Omega technical guide 1955 caliber number 440. Four pages first page is basically what the watches this is a tiny watch 13.5 mm in diameter. What makes it interesting is it has a crown on the back. So obviously it needs technical literature. Second page continues on with just technical information halfway down we get to as they called to keyless work which is different because as I said the grounds on the backside page 3 talks a little about casing up little bit of information on assembly and disassembly all in words no pretty pictures but that's really for removing the movement for the case. That continues on to the last page that's really just on the peculiar back in winding and setting part .

then we get the lubrication it just says the various components should be lubricated in the same way as those of all other small Omega calibers. Lists out the four types of oils are supposed to be using and remind you not the lubricate the pallet pivots.

Then there's a picture of the spare parts but there is no actual information on how to service the watch as you don't need to know that?

now this was probably a bad example because it came before the lubrication guide. a quick look at the other documents I have into the 60s basically the same thing they only cover the special the information anything unique to that movement. They have a parts list they tell you the lubricants and give me a clue as to where they should be used but now a step-by-step guide and nothing on how to disassemble clean or any of that because of course that's covered in a separate document.

so that if we use the above example JDM as noticed the same thing I have their technical documentation seems to be lacking in information for variety of reasons. One they assume you know how to service a watch. True they assume you have the rest of the technical documentation the newest documentation will make references to the supplemental information you need the past they never covered it because they just didn't. But still they don't have a technical step-by-step guide on how to service their watches because they assume you know how to do that. If you're lucky maybe they'll have a specialty guide where they consolidate a whole series of these watches together with specialty information common to them all.

one of the reasons I brought up the surface treatment way up above somewhere was the watch companies have been using that for a very long time. The views surface treatment to keep oil from spreading you can use insanely in lubricants that like the spread unless you use surface treatment. If you don't have the supplemental information you don't know that they're using this this means even if you follow the guide you still may not be doing things correctly because you may not have all of the guides. This comes up in companies like ETA which used to have available their manufacturing information sheets. This would have all this nice technical information including where they surface treated the watch like balance staff for instance. Or the modern shock protection systems there typically surface treated. But you almost never see that in a servicing guide.

Then for an example of Omega working instruction's cousin is a few of them.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=working

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by JohnR725

[Shane]

I would like to thank you all for your consideration and feedback.

 

Given my previous life experiences, I certainly understand the guild mindset of restricting the access of proprietary information and materials to only the blessed/qualified few in order to ensure quality, protect the customer or (if applicable) maintain legal compliance (of one sort or another) but as an enthusiast, I also find it disappointing.  Many of the watches I find most rewarding (see illustration above) would never find their way into the hands of a professional/factory watchmaker and if they ever did, the chosen tools for their immediate improvement would probably be a hammer and a dustpan.  

 

As you can see, the condition of this watch has improved and I have sourced almost all the parts required without ordering anything new.  Since I took this watch apart I wouldn't think that getting it back together would pose much of a problem and aside from that tip about not oiling the "Oterotest mechanism" (thanks Klassiker) I was planning on cleaning and lubricating it in a similar way as the other watches I have already worked on.

 

Wish me luck.  I will post my future progress.

Shane

[Klassiker]

That is an amazing transformation, well done! Did you use a rust-remover chemical, or just normal cleaning solutions?

What is this part for?

I guess it is to do with the date mechanism, as my version doesn't have this complication. Are those 24 red dots jewels, and what is their function?

Apart from the Oterotest, the rest is familiar and I also lubricated following the conventional rules. Good luck!

 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Klassiker said:

Are those 24 red dots jewels, and what is their function?

it's been common from time to time for watch companies the bump up the jewel count by putting them in clever locations. So basically they go in locations that really don't need them. But it does allow you to list that my watch has way more jewels than yours and obviously it's a better watch. Another common place would be around the edge of automatic watch just in case the automatic weight should ever touched the main plate which it never should do.

[Klassiker]

Hi John, I am aware of the non-functional-jewels-for-the-sake-of -jewel-count trend, I am just wondering if that is the case here. Otero 48 is a quirky movement in quite a few ways. Maybe this is another interesting idea they had back then. I am guessing the plate goes under the date wheel, because my version has an oscillating weight, but not this part. Anyway, let's wait and see what Shane has to say.

[Shane]

Thanks for noticing the difference.  It's taken a bit more time and effort than most of my services usually do.

I have scrubbed the parts with Comet scouring powder and toothbrush and then again with baking soda and the same toothbrush.  I would not leave the Comet on very long as it smells and feels to be chemically quite aactives. (testing will be required)

Yes this plate goes under the date wheel.  I am on the fence, as to what I think about the twenty four jewels in this location.  I do have a version without this added jewelry, so I can say it dose work without them and using only three jewels would still have fully defined a lower friction plane for this wheel to interact with but, as they say, "I was not in on the meeting".  The rest of the movement seems to be well engineered so perhaps they had reasoning that is not quite apparent sixty ish years in the future.

As of last night, the train wheels, mainspring, barrel and their respective bridges are in.  I still have not found replacement screws for the almost thirty locations but the the ones I am using will be mechanically functional, just not aesthetically pleasing.  The only center wheel I have found thus far has lost it's ability for driving a second hand but as it stands, I have not found an appropriate second hand so this is not yet a problem.  With an eye towards proving out the rest of the movement and the replacement parts already sorcedd, I'm going ahead with the assembly for now in spite of these short coming.

Thank you.

Shane

Edited August 1, 2021 by Shane