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Davey57

Does this look correct?

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I got the chance of a very cheap old clock for spares or repair. Ideal for practice purposes so I bought it. A few parts were  missing but the movement was complete, save for the wrong pendulum, it was filthy and soaked in oil. So I have had it stripped right down, cleaned and reassembled it. It is going  nicely and I have sorted out the chimes which all sounded very odd at first. The chime side has a couple of extra parts than the one that I looked at recently. It all seems to work ok as I say but there is a cam on the inside with a notch in. When the clock has just chimed and then come to rest there is a lever just above that notch, I’m not sure but I have a feeling the lever might be meant to rest in the notch. There is a screw that holds the cam onto the pinion, I did not move it so it is in the same position as it’s always been. Hopefully the pictures might help make it clearer. The clock is in this condition where the warning has not yet occurred. The second picture shows the lever and the notch in the cam with the screw head just slightly ahead. 

Thanks .

 

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I’ve just had another quick look. It seems the lever is only able to drop any lower when the pin on the back side of the main chime cam has tipped that reverse L shaped lever just to the right. I cannot work out why or when the lever needs to sit in that notch to be honest.

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I have not worked on this type of movement for years, however it could be to do with the silent/chime. Looking at you photo the lever does not seem to be attached to anything and looks to be on the chime at the moment.

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Hi Davey   This is a smiths K5A I think and the parts to which you refer are the parts which operate the Auto correct mechanism. When the hands are moved manually through the hour ths chime is out of sync for example when it is the quarter it chimes the half hour, what happens is the chime train is arrested by the inner pin on the warning wheel on the pawl on the inside of the plate. there are two pawls one with the long pin attached locks the chine train under normal operation the second pawl locks the train when the hands are out of synch and is reset on the hour by the hump on the chime locking cam on the front plate to put things back in   have recently had a clock of the same type and still failed to get it to lock sucessfully.  I have trawled the net for information on Smiths clocks and apart from Barrie Smiths history of Smiths clocks and Smiths industries I have found no technical information on Smiths clocks, There are references to the electric clocks but precious little on the mechanical clocks.     I set mine to lock in conjunction with the main locking cam ( the one near the back plate) . also watch the back end of the loose  lever as it sits on a bar with a cut out which is reset by a pin on the count cam.  Hermle and others use the twin pawl system but this has subtle differences. Further research to be done to sus it out.  There will be others on the forum Perhaps Old Hippy has some ideas.

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This one is also locking on the innermost cam. It does seem to chime and strike correctly. I will be happy with that. I have watched and watched what happens when the chime starts but it all happens so quick it’s hard to see what’s going on. Its quite fiendish to understand. The cam looks like it has a ramp rather than a stop shape to the notch. So I still can’t see how the lever would arrest the cam. I shall stare at it some more, maybe I will have a lightbulb moment!

Thanks both.

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As far as I remember. The fixed cam wheel on the inside locked, should be the same with the one on the outside. You have to get the right depth otherwise; the chime might trip and keep going.  

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Hi Davey     I had mine set up all ways and as far as I can acertain when the chime is out of sequence and only then will the loose pawl arrest the warning wheel using the innermost peg on the wheel (there are two, one  used for warning facing the front plate and the inner one facing the back plate) This is the one that locks the chime train.  Un locking takes place when the STAR cam on the center wheel moves to the top  lifting the long lever to release the warning on the chine and the warning on the strike, When the STAR cam drops the lever the chime is released the rack drops and strike is in warning waiting for the chime to finish at which time the strike is released. What bugs me is what initiates the loose pawl to lock the train  as by moving the hands has no interaction other than moving the STAR cam and un synching the chime.  As you noticed the cam is just that with a dwell on it this allows the pawl to drop only to be reset when the chime lock pawl (the one with the extended pin on it ) is lifted by the long lever at the hour by the STAR cam, and what is the function of the sliding rod with the cut out in it which is pushed forward with  the count wheel/cam on the front plate.

If you set it up as Old hippy says and give it a try. I am favouring its a timing problem in conjunction with the warning /stop wheel and the pawl. If you get a result please post the answer with pics. My cutomer was delighted that I got It working at all and was made aware of the problems it still had and was happy with it even though the auto correct was not working.   I will try to get another clock of the same ilk for research purposes. 

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Thanks OH, I’ll try setting it the way and see what happens.

Thank you WW for the explanation. I’ll do as OH says and play around some more with it. I don’t have a minute hand for it, it was missing. Is there my other way to quickly advance the movement or will I need to drop the mainspring out again?

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Hi Davey   Use any hand which fits the square or a small and I mean small shifting wrench. alterativly a tiny spanner they are available in good tool shops.  last resort its to make a key or measure the square

 and get hold of a pocket watch key the same size  assorted sizes are on the  bay.  Keep us posted on any progress and if I manage to get another clock of the same ilk I will let you know what I find out. Good luck.

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Not sure but I think I’ve worked out how it works. See what you think, not easy to explain but I’ll try.

When the chime cam is in position just ready for the hour chimes, the pin on the inside of it tips the reverse L shaped lever, allowing the lever resting on it to drop into the notch in the cam with screw. In this position it is ready to catch the pin on the inside of the warning wheel, which it does when the star wheel rises enough to trigger the warning by releasing the inner cam. As the star wheel rises further it lifts the release lever some more, an extended pin on it contacts the other lever as it lifts, releasing the warning wheel, it revolves slightly until it is held by the regular warning stop lever. The chimes will then sound when the lever releases the pin. So the only time the pin on the inside of the chime count cam operates that sequence is on the hour. If the chimes are out of sync they will be held until the hour comes round again when they will be released to chime correctly on the hour, putting them back in sync. It’s difficult to understand unless you have the movement in front of you, but I think that’s what happens. If I’ve got it wrong just tell me.

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1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

That sounds about right. What you are describing at first is how the warning starts, than its held up until the lever drops then the chime comes into play.

Thanks Old Hippy, I wasn’t 100% sure.

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Hi Davey   that sounds spot on  the chime release can only take place on the hour to re scync the chime

when it is in the lock position  lets have a few pictures of the cam and lever  and sliding lock setups so others can reference it there are sure others out there and there is no tech info from smiths at all now. good to know it is sussed out well done you.

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I’ll try and get some clear pictures taken and post them here. Last night I put the chimes to silent. This morning I set it to chime and watched it all work out as stated as the hour came around. Ingenious!  I don’t know what to do with the movement now though. The case was incomplete when I got it. Not sure whether I should try and find another case or try and pick up what’s needed for this one. It’s only a minute hand and nut, and the bezel and glass is missing/broken off. The pendulum‘s not the right one but it might do for now.

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Hi Davey,  I should hang onto it and if possible re case it This I think is a Smiths K5A movement and like all common movements usually got dumped when they broke as fixing them was un economic It is only the likes of us to whom the repair time doe's not matter who will fix them for fun, Pro's charge a  price for fixing these clocks. A friend of mine was quoted  £450, For a Hermle. They are an example of inginuity and craftsmanship and worth keeping.  Information on SMITHS clocks is in short supply the only source of Info is Smiths domestic clocks by Barrie Smith and his web site smiths clocks by Barrie Smith,  congrats for sussing it out.

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I’m hoping to eventually recase it. Either find another case or use this one if I can muster the parts. I am going to give to my sister as a moving in present for her new house.

Meantime I have taken some pictures, as best I can. Hopefully they will show the sequence of events. I’ll post one at a time to make sure they appear in order. I hope I have this right. I’d be glad if someone with experience could verify it.

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927F5C77-EE8A-4566-AAC4-19C9C5C78076.thumb.jpeg.ba9b5d62455550448b58fbeffd23a281.jpeg

This shows the position as the clock has just chimed the  3/4 hour.  Notice the indicated points. The pin on the back of the cam has tipped the reverse L shaped lever pulling along the lever resting against it.

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E5439175-1BD5-43A7-88B1-8ECC262A8034.thumb.jpeg.1fd7fc076b504569a9ad049d471059f3.jpeg

Here is the view from the other side. The lever has slid along allowing the lever to drop into the notch (circle left). Circle right, I had to move the wheel back a tiny bit to get the photo but, the pin on the wheel is held by the lever.

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Hi Davey   the pics are great and informative,   If you get stuck for a case I have a collection of old clocks that might do although the gong rod assy will need refitting , not usually a problem. message me if required

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Phew, thanks Old Hippy.

I tried to edit my last post just to add something but I ran out of time.

I wanted to say that, as the clock comes to the hour, the long arm on the star wheel lifts the lever on the left some more. This lever has a small bar which then lifts the lever on the right until it clears the pin on the wheel. The wheel is then free to advance until it is held by the normal warning lever ready to chime. This sequence occurs every hour, so if the chimes are not in sync they are held like this until the hour comes round again and they are released.

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