How to remove stem from this JLC

[AP1875]

Hi guys I need to remove the stem from this movement to place it in a case. Any ideas where the button is to release it?

 

 

 

 

 

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[AP1875]

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[nickelsilver]

As I recall, you loosen slightly the circled screw, then press on the yellow part (that's the set lever) and it should come out.

[AP1875]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

As I recall, you loosen slightly the circled screw, then press on the yellow part (that's the set lever) and it should come out.

Thank you very much, I will try that.

[AP1875]

One more question, any tips on position for the stem to be removed on this cal. 889?

[nickelsilver]

50 minutes ago, AP1875 said:

One more question, any tips on position for the stem to be removed on this cal. 889?

I do this for a living, and I know the professional consensus is to generally remove the stem in the setting position, but I don't. I always do it in the winding position. The reasoning for the other way is there's less chance of bumping the sliding pinion out from under the yoke; I just do it carefully and wiggle and twist to be sure the square has gone in before really pushing anything.

[rogart63]

Before you press. Rotate the movement so it's supported on all four corners. As it is now it will probably slip of when you press down. Been there done that as they say.  Very nice looking movement btw. 

Edited January 22, 2019 by rogart63

[AP1875]

I do this for a living, and I know the professional consensus is to generally remove the stem in the setting position, but I don't. I always do it in the winding position. The reasoning for the other way is there's less chance of bumping the sliding pinion out from under the yoke; I just do it carefully and wiggle and twist to be sure the square has gone in before really pushing anything.

Thanks for your input. Nice to hear opinions from people working in the industry.

Just to double check do you mean your way in the winding position it is easier to prevent the sliding pinion moving from under the yoke? Ever since I started doing 7750 stem removals in the winding position I had no issues.

Is there anyway to get a tech sheet for these movements? I’ve tried to find it online and it’s nowhere to be found. What do you guys do if you can’t find it?




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[AP1875]

Before you press. Rotate the movement so it's supported on all four corners. As it is now it will probably slip of when you press down. Been there done that as they say.  Very nice looking movement btw. 

Noted thanks . I just lay it on top to take some pictures. It’s back in its case now.


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[nickelsilver]

No, in winding the sliding pinion is against the winding pinion. In some movements, if you put the stem in and the square pushes the sliding pinion away, it can wriggle under the yoke. When in setting it can't really be pushed. I just prefer it in winding... I think I had a caliber once where it was actually worse in setting and that cemented my bias. Bottom line is if you are careful in setting position it's fine. I can’t recall the last time I had to pull a dial because the sliding pinion went wonky. It's sort of a general debate amongst pros, and most seem to prefer setting position.

So that's pretty much entirely unhelpful to you, haha, sorry!

[AP1875]

So in the time set position it is like this - the set lever can not be seen.




So do as you mentioned, leave in winding position loosen the screw and press the set leaver?


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[nickelsilver]

Honestly it looks like you can do it in that position but it would be easier in setting. It's been a couple of years since I was inside one of those...

[AP1875]

Honestly it looks like you can do it in that position but it would be easier in setting. It's been a couple of years since I was inside one of those...

Ok so I did this in the winding position as you mentioned and it worked great so thanks for that.

Apart from needing to remove the stem to place it in a case, I felt like I needed to remove it due to an issue I’m experiencing which I’m finding very strange.

I bought this movement in late 2015 (for a brilliant price when the £ hadn’t completely collapsed!). It’s been living in a sealed container, I’ve removed it around 5 times since I bought it just to admire it. Literally as soon as I picked it up it would start running like a champ.

It never had a crown fitted to the stem so I couldnt hand wind/quick set the date etc.

November 2018 I decided to attach a stem extension (while the stem was still in the movement). It’s never ran properly since I attached it :-( .

The movement just idles amp is 160 deg. Beat error shows something ridiculous like 9.9 it doesn’t start running with a shake like it used to and when I turn it upside down it stops running.

Have I disturbed something when I first turned the crown after attaching the extension/crown?

Seems very strange, does anyone have any suggestions what could have caused this?

I’d just strip it straight down and investigate but this is the first really expensive movement I’ve worked on. It makes me very nervous for some reason, maybe due to the lack of tech sheet and information available on the web. Ive previously serviced eta 2824,2836,2892 the 7750 and a few others like these (just so you know roughly what level I’m at).

Without stem




Test at 52deg (unsure of lift angle for this cal, not that it’s super important right now)







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[nickelsilver]

I can't think of anything that would affect the running like that from messing with the stem. Have you had a good look at the balance and hairspring? Maybe the regulator/stud holder got shifted drastically, that would account for the beat error, low amp, and reluctance to self start.

[Nucejoe]

If the canon pinion is too tight and brings in the extra load of min train. can,t this  impede the runing of movement  or stop it,  in set position?  

 

 

 

 

[AP1875]

 

 

On 1/24/2019 at 10:47 AM, nickelsilver said:

I can't think of anything that would affect the running like that from messing with the stem. Have you had a good look at the balance and hairspring? Maybe the regulator/stud holder got shifted drastically, that would account for the beat error, low amp, and reluctance to self start.

Here is a picture from 2016 everything looks to be in the same position it is now. It has been running in this dial down position now for around 30 hours. I've let the power down via click spring and after 6/7 turns it does start running.

 

here is a video of the balance and escapement and below a video on the timegrapher. 

 

22 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

If the canon pinion is too tight and brings in the extra load of min train. can,t this  impede the runing of movement  or stop it,  in set position?  

 

 

 

 

It ran fine (auto wind only as there was no extended stem) before Christmas. the only thing I have done is added a stem and crown.

 

If anyone else has any ideas id really appreciate it?

[Nucejoe]

Run for 30 hrs before christmas wound by selfwinder.

We can safely say my suspecian of tight canon pinion or fault in min train is dismissed

Also 30hrs wound by selfwinder  means strong winder mech, good power delivery and power reserve takes delivery well. So MS, Barrel and all components of the said mechs are good.

Poor amplitude, different behaviour at differnet positions and stop.

Faulty staff pivot ( short, damaged) , check staffs axial end play, also if you are comfortable with raising one side of balance check if pivot jumps out of jewel hole,  If the pivot is short on the mainplate side,  end stone can be flipped facing dome side of end stone towards pivot, this will compensate for worn short pivot.

Checking for damaged end stone spring on mainplate remains.

Good chance of disalligned or moved pallets.

The video did not reveal any HS abnormality, just a gorgeous creature  as expected.

That is all I can say at this point , Nickelsilver is more knowlegable and skilled, lets wait for his opinion.

Don,t worry this gorgeous creature will run as this quality make should.

 

[Nucejoe]

Poor video resoltution.

[AP1875]

52 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Poor video resoltution.

 

 

Thanks for the input and overall reassurance this movement will (hopefully) been running very well again.

I just don’t see how pallets can be misaligned or the end stones could be damaged (checked this can’t see anything obvious) the movement is new and has lived in this container for years with the occasional wind via auto mech.



Regarding video quality, it should be very good, it was shot with a gh5 and rendered at 1080p. Focus might be a little off because I didn’t use peaking.




Anyway hopefully we can bash our heads together and try and workout what has happened...


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Edited January 25, 2019 by AP1875

[Nucejoe]

Yes bad focus.

Runs in dial down position,  this can mean, the pivot shoulder on the cock side may come in contact with the jewel housing hole at cock side.

( The talk of end stone spring is no longer of concern, since the incab spring at cock side looks good.)

Balance seem to run unsteady in the video and seems like the impulse may be hitting the roller table. Will you obsreve the balance when runing, should run steady, smooth, though with low amplitude, I wish you hadn,t moved the movement so I could have got  a sense of balance steadyness.

Video adds to the suspected list, escapement wheel wobling.

Yes pallets could have disalligned or move in or outward in fork slot. 

Most important at this point is to check the staffs axial end play.

 

[nickelsilver]

Have you had a really good look all around the balance and escapement to see if there's a strand of dust or something?

It's just a gut feeling but it looks like the regulator arm is quite far in the advance position. Maybe it's right, but generally it would be 20 or so degrees closer to the stud holder. That wouldn't  account for the low amplitude though.

It would be odd for a pallet stone to move. If so it would usually be from actual physical contact with tweezers or pithwood and the offending stone would likely be sticking at an angle. Also unlikely the staff has been damaged, though not impossible; sometimes those Kif jewels can get knocked out of position and their springs don't quite get them back in place. I know it sounds kooky but drop it, in the movement holder, onto your bench from a couple inches high. Flip movement over and repeat. This can reset them.

[Nucejoe]

Not just your gut feeling, Note when he tries to get the balance moving with tweezers, the wheel will go some 20 degrees  for impulse to recieve impact from the fork. I didn,t know that accounts for such low amplitude or dose it.

So bring the stud career back, until the slightest turn of the balance in either direction moves the fork. You can observe the fork and pallets from top view. 

 

[AP1875]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Have you had a really good look all around the balance and escapement to see if there's a strand of dust or something?

It's just a gut feeling but it looks like the regulator arm is quite far in the advance position. Maybe it's right, but generally it would be 20 or so degrees closer to the stud holder. That wouldn't  account for the low amplitude though.

It would be odd for a pallet stone to move. If so it would usually be from actual physical contact with tweezers or pithwood and the offending stone would likely be sticking at an angle. Also unlikely the staff has been damaged, though not impossible; sometimes those Kif jewels can get knocked out of position and their springs don't quite get them back in place. I know it sounds kooky but drop it, in the movement holder, onto your bench from a couple inches high. Flip movement over and repeat. This can reset them.

 

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Not just your gut feeling, Note when he tries to get the balance moving with tweezers, the wheel will go some 20 degrees  for impulse to recieve impact from the fork. I didn,t know that accounts for such low amplitude or dose it.

So bring the stud career back, until the slightest turn of the balance in either direction moves the fork. You can observe the fork and pallets from top view. 

 

So I removed the balanced and inspected the pallet fork, balance/spring, shock springs and impulse/roller jewel. I can't see anything obvious. looks very clean no dust or hairs.

here are some super macro pictures. 

 

As im unwinding the power from the movement there's not much power. With my eta movements, if I took my fingers off the crown the power from the spring is so strong, I've taken my fingers off the crown in the video and the movement is just unwinding very slowly.

and another video just of the movement running (taken with my iPhone)

I'll start playing around with the regulation if you guys don't see anything additional here. I also tried giving it a little drop, only 1cm in the movement holder from my matt and the balance is out of place now, it does not run, I don't get any swinging when manipulating with tweezers. I'll have to take the balance out again and replace it. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by AP1875

[Nucejoe]

That HS looks like a million dollar to me, if level hs is perfect. roller looks seated at right angle. All good so far.

Dropped 1cm and the balance pivot jump out of place, ( a sign consistant with too much end shake) , yet  the tip of the pivot end can be seen just sticking out of the jewel , good sign by itself, contradicts excessive end shake .We don,t know how healthy is incab spring on mainplate side.

And no rush of power release as you unleash the click, so power supply can expectedly be poor. The balance takes off as you turn the crown in winding direction. Power dosn,t get to the train freely  ( that right there cab be the issue) 

Have I gathered what I summerize,  correctly. 

Let me get some tea and see if I can understand what I am saying.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Face up&down results in axial displacement of staff or arbors, which if in turn can bring about contats causing impedence.

Balance stops as soon as you face the dial up. The instantaneity of the effect points to balance wheel and somewhat to the fork, I can safely regard it to disclude the escape wheel and therebefore . Had it impeded the escape wheel we would have seen the  balance continue oscillating for a short while. Joe