Smiths Empire RAF 1943

[p2n]

Came across this the other day. Think it might be a good find from what I've found on google.

Will clean it up - the mechanism seems to have been liberally coated in 3-in-1 or WD40. Thankfully not the escape or balance. It seems to run well.

Some of the original screws were rusty and someone had replaced a few so will change them all for new brass ones.

Any tips on general restoration of a clock like this welcome.

 

 

[Chopin]

Very nice. Are these the type of clocks that would be found in RAF bases/locations ?

[p2n]

5 minutes ago, Chopin said:

Are these the type of clocks that would be found in RAF bases/locations ?

You know about as much as I do at the moment.

All I've been able to find on google is that Smiths made a lot of this type of clock, but produced a special "RAF" version around 1942.

Most of what I know came from this site: http://designc20.com/raf-empire-43.html

 

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by p2n

[Chopin]

That's what I read somewhere IIRC.

[wls1971]

I have two of these clocks, both dated 1943 the case is made from Bakerlite the ones I have are slightley different and have the issue date and a broad arrow on the dial and have a smiths 123 movement with the platform on top of the movement. 

They are a straight forward movement to service the only thing to watch on these Smiths platform escapements is that the regulating arm sometimes doesn't move the regulator index or will only move it one way this cause the platform to run at excessive speed gaining minutes a day. You can move the regulator arm and make no diffrence to time keeping so when you service it make sure when you move the arm the index actually moves.

The cases where made from bakerlite because a war time shortage of oak made it too valuable a commodity to waste on a clock, do not use any type of abrasive cleaner or solvent based cleaner on the case just use a good quality wax polish the finnish on bakerlite is only skin deep.

These where issued where ever they where needed so could have been in a office, op's room canteen any where some times there is a stores number painted on the back of the clocks this can make it possible to work out which R.A.F base it was issued to.

These are often described as rare which is stretching it quite a bit they where made in quite large numbers by smiths and prices on the web and Ebay seem to go from sensible to cloud cuckoo, I paid 100 pounds for one and 70 for the other quite recently. at auction houses they seem to go for a max of 300 pounds but quite often much lower

Another thing to watch is the bezels are spun brass and quite flimsy at the hinge I replaced the glass on the one I have on the wall in my living room with perspex which is much lighter and kinder to the hinge than the original glass fitted ( retain the original glass if you do this).

As far as restoration goes your clock doesn't really need any the dial is good with only minor paint loss where the dial screws go on the edge, the dials quite often suffer from rust and discolouring, do as little as possible and leave as original as possible is the only advice to give.

[oldhippy]

Not much to add to wis1971 excellent post.

The more expensive R A F clocks were fusee and made by Elliott, they have completely different movements. The clocks that were at the more famous airfields also fetch higher prices. 

You need to clean the platform in a watch cleaning machine to be on the safe side as all that can come apart needs to in order to do the job correctly. A mainspring winder you will need. You can clean the movement in Horolene. A little tip before removing the platform just make a tiny mark on one side and at the bottom so you will know where to put the platform back, that way you will have the same depth as before.

[p2n]

Found the engraving on the movement:

 

Doing the mainspring is going to be difficult - I don't own a mainspring winder.

 

Think it need more oil? lol

[oldhippy]

I would say that m/spring is wrong it is not high enough and it is tired. You need a new M/spring.

You should not remove a clock spring without a m/s winder. If you do by pulling it out of the barrel, you will pull it out of shape. When you put it back, and you wind it. It will wind out of shape; it could cause the clock to run poorly causing bad regulation, even rubbing inside the barrel.

[p2n]

It seemed to wind and run quite well before.

As for removing and refitting the spring - I was most worried about finishing with the same number of fingers as I started with lol.

There are quite a few of these on fleabay - they any good?

 

[oldhippy]

I never used that type. This is the type of winder I had.

[p2n]

Can you link to one?

My list of things to buy is £1000000 long so I need to be frugal - I can buy better quality stuff later on.

[Murt]

I bought this one on ebay. I find it quiet good. A lot cheaper at 176€ including p&p than the original spring winders and i find it good and strong.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldhippy]

9 hours ago, p2n said:

Can you link to one?

My list of things to buy is £1000000 long so I need to be frugal - I can buy better quality stuff later on.

Here you go. They are a bit pricy but it will last you a life time.

The first on the left is the type I had, mine was not made by Bergeon.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/mainspring-tools

http://www.watchtoolsonline.com/Ollie-Baker-style-Mainspring-Winder-Set-for-Clockmaker-09704.htm

This is a popular one. I think clockboy has this type.

[p2n]

Both well out of my price range for now.

Is there a way to clean the spring in situ? I know it won't be as good, but I'm going to have to work around this for now.

[oldhippy]

7 hours ago, p2n said:

Both well out of my price range for now.

Is there a way to clean the spring in situ? I know it won't be as good, but I'm going to have to work around this for now.

The answer is no.

I will tell you how you can remove the spring using a pair of pliers but I do not recommend this as it can cause problems. Its best to wear a pair of gloves, grab near the end of the spring at the arbor end and gently pull up until the spring is just higher than the barrel and un-wind it. Be very careful as doing it this way you are going to pull it out of shape, don’t pull to high as the higher you pull the more out of shape the spring will be come. Be extremely careful at the barrel end you do not want the end to twist, but you need it to unhook. You can wash the spring, barrel and arbor in petrol. Wipe the spring clean and other parts. Put the barrel end of the spring onto the hook and gently hand wind the spring back into the barrel. Oil the spring with Windles clock oil; do not forget a little in both holes where the arbor fits into the barrel. Replace the arbor making sure the arbor will wind the spring and replace the barrel cap.     

[p2n]

In theory the same technique as I'd use for a pocket watch spring - just scaled up and with a significantly higher amount of stored energy and finger removing potential.

Ok - will let you know how it does and how many finger I retain after

 

[wls1971]

If you do it this way wear some safety goggles or glasses as well as gloves just in case you only get one pair of eyes !

[p2n]

[p2n]

That was much easier than I thought.

22 hours ago, oldhippy said:

I would say that m/spring is wrong it is not high enough and it is tired. You need a new M/spring.

You're right - it's a little on the tired side.

As for finding a replacement and fitting it, are the rules the same as with a pocket watch - match thickness, height and length?

If I get a new spring it's going to have more strength than this one - it it still possible to hand fit them?

 

[oldhippy]

That old spring has been shortened.

For a new spring, you need the height so measure from the inside of the barrel to just below where the barrel cap will fit. Then the diameter of the barrel from the inside. You do not need to bother with the strength. The spring that they will send you will have a hole or some call it an eye, make sure it hooks on right. I expect it will come wound with a strong wire. You should be able to drop it into the barrel, cut the wire and press down. You can put the arbor in, wind it by hand, and hope the end catches the barrel. Do not forget to oil it. If it does not catch, you will have to go through what I told you on how to remove the spring. Be careful many of these new springs have very sharp edges and will cut your hands.  

[p2n]

The barrel is 40.6 mm dia and it's 25.3mm from the bottom to the lit where the lid would fit. The spring is 0.35mm thick.

Assuming I need some clearance between the spring and the top/bottom of the barrel, going for a 24mm high spring, the best match from Cousins would be: 24 x 0.40 x 1500 x 40mm (244040)

Would you think this would be the best fit, or should I pick a 23 or 25mm one?

 

[oldhippy]

Yes that will be fine.

[p2n]

Will be ordered on pay day! (I looked at my cousins account and considering I've only been playing with clocks and watches for two months I've spent a ******* lot already - maybe best not tell the missus).

[p2n]

Well, in the meantime I've cleaned everything and reassembled - it's ticking nicely at the moment. Hand winding the mainspring was relatively easy - possibly due to it being shorter that it should be and weaker,

I'll let it run for a day or two and see how well it keeps time. I was told it was fast before - probably due to the globs of 3-in-1 on the hairspring lol. Mind you - all that oil seems to have limited the wear - all the pivots were ok (as far as I could judge).

I need to have another attempt at cleaning as the parts are still tarnished and have an oily patina to them. I'll get some Horolene or similar asap.

On the subject of oil and pivots - how much oil do you use with a clock? I've got my medium and fine watch oiling pins - what do you use with a clock?

Edited May 22, 2018 by p2n

[oldhippy]

I had a set of watch oilers and I used the thickest one, which was yellow. Be careful you do not want to fill the oil sink so it over flows.