AS1130 balance removal?

[rogart63]

How do i remove this kind of balance. can't find any screw . There is a spring of some sort. Need to change the balance staff or balance. 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by rogart63

[khunter]

ummm, the balance cock screw, located below and between the + and - mark? Not really sure which "spring" you're referring to....

I'm talking about the larger screw, I believe the smaller screw to the left is for endshake adjustment and should not be touched...unless of course you're adjusting the endshake....

Edited March 6, 2018 by khunter

[rogart63]

27 minutes ago, khunter said:

ummm, the balance cock screw, located below and between the + and - mark? Not really sure which "spring" you're referring to....

I'm talking about the larger screw, I believe the smaller screw to the left is for endshake adjustment and should not be touched...unless of course you're adjusting the endshake....

Tried to take some better pictures. Not easy of something that small . Unfortunately no screw on the underside. The + and - on the little knob is for adjusting the rate.  Maybe need to take the complete arm of from the balance cook. But would be very difficult to remove that from the collet from the balance staff with that dangeling. 

[khunter]

you asked how to remove the balance, you mean you need to know how to disconnect the hairspring from the balance arm, you've got me there, no clue....

[rogart63]

That little arm can i open it. If so how? 

[rogart63]

2 minutes ago, khunter said:

you asked how to remove the balance, you mean you need to know how to disconnect the hairspring from the balance arm, you've got me there, no clue....

Exactly. But  i mean to remove the balance from the balance cook. The hairspring from the balance will be a later problem . 

Edited March 6, 2018 by rogart63

[khunter]

Just now, rogart63 said:

Exactly. But  i mean to remove the balance from the balance cook. the hairspring from the balance will be a later problem . 

Yes I understand, you need to separate the balance wheel from the balance cock, which is attached by the hairspring right now. I'm not sure on this type of movement, but it almost appears that you would turn the wheel towards the - several turns and the hairspring will come out.....reverse the procedure to re-install....It looks like the wheel simply advances the hairspring through 2 rollers, but don't quote me on that lol....

[khunter]

8 minutes ago, khunter said:

you asked how to remove the balance, you mean you need to know how to disconnect the hairspring from the balance arm, you've got me there, no clue....

balance arm should have been balance cock.....my mistake

 

[khunter]

try turning the little wheel a turn or two clockwise and observe the hairspring, I think it will slide out from the 2 pins on the left.

[rogart63]

13 minutes ago, khunter said:

try turning the little wheel a turn or two clockwise and observe the hairspring, I think it will slide out from the 2 pins on the left.

Will try that tomorrow.  I was thinking the same.  Maybe better to do that on the movement to get it stable? Have seen this setup once before. Didn't have to change anything that time. Not sure what they call this kind of regulator?

Edited March 6, 2018 by rogart63

[khunter]

Just now, rogart63 said:

Will try that tomorrow.  I was thinking the same.  Maybe better to do that on the movement to get it stable? Have seen this setup once before. Didn't have to change anything that time. Not sure what they call this kind of regulator. 

I think having it back in the movement would help yes. It is unique if nothing else, the setup I mean.....good luck!!

[rodabod]

Is that actually a set of adjustable curb pins (for centring?). 

Reminds me of the Cyma Cal 234 with adjustable stud.

Do you think the stud is press-fitted? On many cyclinder movements, you just support the balance cock and press the stud out with tweezers  it can be a bit scary, and it makes height adjustment difficult.

 

 

 

[rogart63]

Worked they way @khuntersaid . Rolled it out by turning the knob. Now i just need to put the roller table and hairspring over to the other balance wheel. 

[khunter]

The real problem I see is getting the hairspring back on in the right orientation in relation to the roller, as pulling the hairspring through those pins as it is will greatly effect the beat adjustment. I'd refer back to your photos when reinstalling. 

[rogart63]

1 hour ago, khunter said:

The real problem I see is getting the hairspring back on in the right orientation in relation to the roller, as pulling the hairspring through those pins as it is will greatly effect the beat adjustment. I'd refer back to your photos when reinstalling. 

That is no problem. Beat error can be adjusted by moving the complete regulator. 

[rogart63]

17 hours ago, rogart63 said:

That little arm can i open it. If so how? 

Quoting myself. This pin can be pulled out. But need to be careful not pulling to much. If parts fall out it's very tricky to get them back in place. Very small parts. But need to loose it a little to get the hairspring in.  Unfortuntely the balance i had didn't work. But new parts are on the way. 

[MrRoundel]

I don't know much about that regulator other than it being called an "Incastar". I saw it in Jendritski's "The Swiss Watch Repairer's Manual". I found info here on WRT, but nothing on servicing the balance, just using the regulator.

Incastar

[rogart63]

7 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

I don't know much about that regulator other than it being called an "Incastar". I saw it in Jendritski's "The Swiss Watch Repairer's Manual". I found info here on WRT, but nothing on servicing the balance, just using the regulator.

Incastar

Funny i did a question about this some years ago  https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/2944-new-kind-of-adjustment-for-me/

[rogart63]

Didn't work. Got a balance wheel today. Moved the hairspring over from the old balance . But it's running to fast. No touching or hairspring sticking together. i am thing of buying a new balance. Maybe someone has modified it? If you shorten the hairspring it will run to fast. 

Have a balance bridge that hasn't got the incastar regulator. But as i look on cousisnuk they have a few different balances. What is the difference between this and that? AS 1130 721 Annulaire and AS 1130 721 Vis. What does Annulaire means? 

Edited March 8, 2018 by rogart63

[MrRoundel]

I'll take a WAG and say that "annulaire" ("annual" root?) denotes a movement that has a date function. It's just a guess though.

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by MrRoundel
Funny that I didn't notice it was your thread. :-)

[khunter]

Generally speaking balance wheels and hairsprings are tuned (vibrated) as a set and switching them around will give poor results. How fast is "too fast"? It could be the wheel you have is slightly lighter than the original and simply needs some weight added (timing washers), but that's only if we're talking a few minutes a day, any more than that and you're looking at putting in heavier screws. I wouldn't suggest adding MORE screws as this could affect the poise, unless you just want to test the theory.

[rogart63]

1 hour ago, khunter said:

Generally speaking balance wheels and hairsprings are tuned (vibrated) as a set and switching them around will give poor results. How fast is "too fast"? It could be the wheel you have is slightly lighter than the original and simply needs some weight added (timing washers), but that's only if we're talking a few minutes a day, any more than that and you're looking at putting in heavier screws. I wouldn't suggest adding MORE screws as this could affect the poise, unless you just want to test the theory.

Just says ++++ on the timegrapher.  Getting a nice beat error. That sounds complex with the timing washers . Isn't that more for pocket watches?  This timing screws are very tiny. Tried two different wheels with same result. 

Doesn't have a high amplitude either. If it had i would suspect the mainspring was to strong. 

Edited March 8, 2018 by rogart63

[khunter]

14 minutes ago, rogart63 said:

Just says ++++ on the timegrapher.  Getting a nice beat error. That sounds complex with the timing washers . Isn't that more for pocket watches?  This timing screws are very tiny. Tried two different wheels with same result. 

Doesn't have a high amplitude either. If it had i would suspect the mainspring was to strong. 

They also made timing washers for bracelet size watches as well but it sounds like a much larger problem than just weight. 

[rodabod]

I've swapped quite a lot of balance springs, and usually they will work ok, but as KHunter says, they are adjusted as a unit in the factory.

So, have you tried it with the conventional balance cock? I'm just not that clear on how the indexing works on the Incastar cock and if the index pins sit in a similar position.

Listen to the escapement to check that it is not ridiculously out of beat. Inspect the hairspidng breathing and make sure that it is not touching the underside of the balance cock.

[rogart63]

6 minutes ago, rodabod said:

I've swapped quite a lot of balance springs, and usually they will work ok, but as KHunter says, they are adjusted as a unit in the factory.

So, have you tried it with the conventional balance cock? I'm just not that clear on how the indexing works on the Incastar cock and if the index pins sit in a similar position.

Listen to the escapement to check that it is not ridiculously out of beat. Inspect the hairspidng breathing and make sure that it is not touching the underside of the balance cock.

Have a couple of AS1130 parts movement on the way.  Will try with a conventional balance bridge. The hairspring for the incastar doesn't look the same as a conventional hairspring. So won't fit on the conventional bridge