Replacing Top Balance Jewel

[jdrichard]

I am working on Hamilton 12s, 912, Model 2 pocket watch and noticed in cleaning that the upper balance jewel was worn and the balance staff pivot also looked worn (most likely from the bad jewel). So my question is, do I replace the complete jewel in its setting or do I get a jewel and friction fit it into the old setting?

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[JohnR725]

if you could get the correct original Hamilton balance jewel that would be the preferred replacement but you're probably not going to find onet. so removing the old jewel replacing with the modern jewel is perfectly acceptable providing you can get a new tool into the setting. Worse case you might have to make a new setting for your new jewel.

[jdrichard]

if you could get the correct original Hamilton balance jewel that would be the preferred replacement but you're probably not going to find onet. so removing the old jewel replacing with the modern jewel is perfectly acceptable providing you can get a new tool into the setting. Worse case you might have to make a new setting for your new jewel.

So do you simply punch the jewel out of the setting and replace it with a friction fit jewel. I have used the Seitz jeweling tool for replacing plate jewels but not for replacing a jewel in a small setting.


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[JohnR725]

It would help to have a tool like in the attached image for holding the setting. Otherwise the setting is just awkward to hold on to. usually the jewel in settings like this are burnished in so breaking the jewel out is usually the easiest way to get it out. Then using your reamer you can make a suitably sized hole for the replacement jewel.

[jdrichard]

It would help to have a tool like in the attached image for holding the setting. Otherwise the setting is just awkward to hold on to. usually the jewel in settings like this are burnished in so breaking the jewel out is usually the easiest way to get it out. Then using your reamer you can make a suitably sized hole for the replacement jewel.

Did not include a picture of the holding tool. Once I ream the hole, I replace the old jewel with a friction fit jewel?


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[JohnR725]

sorry about my inability to arrange the pictures in the correct order. So here's an ultraquick photo essay on the steps you need to do minus a step or two such as knocking the jewel out.. So the 1st image is of the setting with the jewel removed by pushing out. 2nd image shows the setting old jewel and the replacement jewel. 3rd picture the jewel on the pivot of the staff just to make sure it fits. Even though it comes out of the bottle it should be new it's nice just to check. 4th picture holding the setting in the holder before ream out.  5th picture deburring tools not absolutely necessary but nice when reaming the holes as they make the edges nice and clean. 6th  Both sides of the setting and yes it should have been clean before I photographed it. 7th  Back in the watch. Then the last image is the tool with instructions missing from the message above.

then before removing the jewel it's nice to make a drawing to remember which way it's supposed to go in and it's easy to get confused afterwords. Then the jewel is not flush with the top of the setting it's down just a little bit so that there's space between it and the cap jewel.

 

[jdrichard]

sorry about my inability to arrange the pictures in the correct order. So here's an ultraquick photo essay on the steps you need to do minus a step or two such as knocking the jewel out.. So the 1st image is of the setting with the jewel removed by pushing out. 2nd image shows the setting old jewel and the replacement jewel. 3rd picture the jewel on the pivot of the staff just to make sure it fits. Even though it comes out of the bottle it should be new it's nice just to check. 4th picture holding the setting in the holder before ream out.  5th picture deburring tools not absolutely necessary but nice when reaming the holes as they make the edges nice and clean. 6th  Both sides of the setting and yes it should have been clean before I photographed it. 7th  Back in the watch. Then the last image is the tool with instructions missing from the message above.

then before removing the jewel it's nice to make a drawing to remember which way it's supposed to go in and it's easy to get confused afterwords. Then the jewel is not flush with the top of the setting it's down just a little bit so that there's space between it and the cap jewel.

 

I now get it. Big thanks for the effort in showing how. I have replaces plate jewels with my Seitz tool. I don't have the smaller tool to hold the setting


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[szbalogh]

But this is a rubbed in type jewel setting. This should not be treated with the Seitz jeweling tool but with a setting opener and closer tool. 

Or a new friction fit setting should be made for the jewel.

It seems to me that the jewel is off-center. Te balance wont be upright this way.

Edited February 2, 2017 by szbalogh

[jdrichard]

But this is a rubbed in type jewel setting. This should not be treated with the Seitz jeweling tool but with a setting opener and closer tool. 

Or a new friction fit setting should be made for the jewel.

It seems to me that the jewel is off-center. Te balance wont be upright this way.

I think you are right. I do have the opening tool but not the closing tool. I ordered the upper jewel from Dave and it may o me with the correct setting if I am lucky. Else I will dive in and replace the jewel with one of the two techniques. Don't think I can friction fit the jewel into the setting if it is ment to be burnished in.

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[szbalogh]

Just now, jdrichard said:

Don't think I can friction fit the jewel into the setting if it is ment to be burnished in.

Or You could mount the setting on a lathe wax chuck and broaden the hole for the jewel. 

Neither i have the closing tool set. So until now turned two different cones to close the jewel. One with a deep cone and one with a shallow. But DeCarle in the attached picture shows that one can close the jewel even on the lathe. 

Currently i have such a job but had no time to finish. So stay tuned

Edited February 2, 2017 by szbalogh

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, szbalogh said:

But this is a rubbed in type jewel setting. This should not be treated with the Seitz jeweling tool but with a setting opener and closer tool. 

Or a new friction fit setting should be made for the jewel.

it depends upon the type of restoration were trying to do. Visual jewels such as plate jewels much older watches then it would be extremely unacceptable to do what were doing. Earlier jeweled watches don't even use Sapphire their various quartz crystals other hard materials or hopefully hard enough materials. So ideal perfect world would be to replace it with a burnished in jewel but where we going to find one of those?

To understand part of the problem image below the top jewel is a burnished in jewel the bottom modern. The outer edge of the modern is smooth it does not lend itself to being burnished in. so it's equally unacceptable to burnished in a modern jewel because just not going to hold the shape is wrong. It is possible though to modify a modern jewel by knocking the corners off then it can be burnished in. But in some situations this is still to be a problem because the color of modern jewels is unacceptable.

so in this particular case this is a Hamilton 12 size pocket watch nobody's going to care whether we use are burnished in jewel or friction jewel providing it's functionally correct. So you can use the old setting for modern jewel if you can open the hole up big enough to have a smooth edge for the modern jewel. Sometimes you cannot do that then you're going to have to make a new setting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[szbalogh]

22 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It is possible though to modify a modern jewel by knocking the corners off then it can be burnished in.

This is exactly what i did, grinded down the edge of my current projects replacement balance jewel  Will post pictures tomorrow.

An a video also.

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by szbalogh

[jdrichard]

This is exactly what i did, grinded down the edge of my current projects replacement balance jewel [emoji4] Will post pictures tomorrow.

An a video also.

 

A video would be great


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[JohnR725]

if your a member of nawcc they have an article on how to modify modern jewels for burnished in settings.

NAWCC Bulletin No. 180: February 1976
Page 56 – Grinding of Tapered and Beveled Hole-Jewels by Fred Powell

 

[jdrichard]

if your a member of nawcc they have an article on how to modify modern jewels for burnished in settings.

NAWCC Bulletin No. 180: February 1976
Page 56 – Grinding of Tapered and Beveled Hole-Jewels by Fred Powell

 

Thanks


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[szbalogh]

13 hours ago, jdrichard said:

A video would be great


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Some preliminary pictures about finding an acceptable jewel.

This has an ok outer diameter but to thick, cant rub the setting over the edge.

The internal diameter seems a bit big but i have seen worse. 

I will post the video if i had time to close the setting. 

 

Could someone send me that article please please!

 

This was a perfect fit balance hole jewel but it had cracked edges :/ I am not sure if it would be secured centered. So i decided to grind the other one. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by szbalogh

[jdrichard]

Some preliminary pictures about finding an acceptable jewel.



This has an ok outer diameter but to thick, cant rub the setting over the edge.





The internal diameter seems a bit big but i have seen worse. 



I will post the video if i had time to close the setting. 

 

Could someone send me that article please please! [emoji4]

 



This was a perfect fit balance hole jewel but it had cracked edges :/ I am not sure if it would be secured centered. So i decided to grind the other one. 

How the heck do you grind a jewel down

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[szbalogh]

16 minutes ago, jdrichard said:

How the heck do you grind a jewel down

I have some videos about this already. This is how i do it but it would be nice to read that article to know how it should be done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMIUyG6xTno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3rDbL5i5tQ

And drilling hole in jewel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI5m8kW127c

But this one i am currently working on is the smallest i had to work with. It is only 1mm.

[szbalogh]

On 2/2/2017 at 10:47 PM, jdrichard said:

A video would be great

Here you are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3gxp96WjCI