Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

A friend of mine showed me this today asking if I knew anything about. Other than it being gorgeous I had know ideas but thought it might be fun to research. I'd never seen one quite like it.

e706b82a18ac30dc017f2e8b29873e84.jpg71a3413bd27c74a93ec5c471ae44bc47.jpg6cc1ba7d9af79d1875cb25e99615dd83.jpg37b615b8d709d9164b5eec7e84f6b7cf.jpg9aacb457cac4a490ed3acea7df11a0c9.jpg

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Like 1
Posted

I found some info. If the movement serial number matches the case, then this watch is a 15 jewel adjusted movement. Usually the numbers don't match because cases were sold separately from movements, but someone else may correct me if I am wrong on this.

 Can you open and show picture of the actual movement to confirm?

 

Movement Serial Number: 577173  
Grade: A.T. & Co.  
Model: 1857  
Estimated Production Date: March 1873 - May 1873  
Run Quantity: 760  
Total Production: 69,248  
Size: 18s  
Jewels: 15j
Posted
5 hours ago, noirrac1j said:

Usually the numbers don't match because cases were sold separately from movements, but someone else may correct me if I am wrong on this.

No correction needed, cases were mass produced by several different co's, that it's real common to find one branded watch in different case, often there were re-cased after original plum wore out!

That is one BEAUTIFUL dial! Well used watch, can you get movement pic?

  • Like 1
Posted
On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 5:08 AM, WileyDave said:

No correction needed, cases were mass produced by several different co's, that it's real common to find one branded watch in different case, often there were re-cased after original plum wore out!

Correction is needed, on myself,:huh: case and movement numbers rarely match,  Original Noirrac1 assessment was on case number, (this is what happens if you don't read post and it's very early in am!!) if it matches movement, then it is spot on, really need to see movement s/n....thanks!

Posted

Yes I figured that. Can you show the movement @mcass? Its a hunter case, so the back cover can be opened. If you go along the edge of the case, you should feel a spot where it can be [gently] pried open.

JC

Posted

As far as I know "Walthams" were movement manufacturers. It's highly unlikely the serial number will match the case unless made to special order, which I've never heard of.
I suppose a case manufacturer could produce a case with matching number, why I can't imagine.
Numbers on movements or even cases are more to do with "Accounting Purposes" than production dates, though granted, many run in sequence.
It's entirely possible that a manufacturer could use separate Accounting number's for different models.
Why do manufacturers even use serial numbers ? It's normally more to do with submitting some type of information to the relevant authority with regards to income tax returns.

Sent from my SM-T585 using Tapatalk

Posted
5 minutes ago, digginstony said:

Forgot to say. If the watch is size 18 it could be "Special " when I first looked I thought it to be a smaller ladies watch. Very interesting now

Sent from my SM-T585 using Tapatalk
 

Exactly. I thought it was a smaller watch too.

 

Joe

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

That is a very beautiful movement. The watch is certainly a desirable one, and here is the info I found using the movement number:

Screen Shot 2016-12-09 at 10.51.47 PM.png

As you can see, it is a size 16s.

Regards,

JC

Edited by noirrac1j
  • Like 1
Posted

Great info. I know very little about pocket watches. Any idea how much a piece like this is worth? I haven't really been able to find anything to compare it to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Posted
Great info. I know very little about pocket watches. Any idea how much a piece like this is worth? I haven't really been able to find anything to compare it to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If own about a dozen "Walthams " but nothing to compare with yours. The movement is of high quality but there are movements more sort after to the collector, such as the 23 jewel "Vanguard" and the 17 jewel "PS Bartlett" etc.
I'm no expert in anyway and don't pretend to be. I haven't collected for a long time but as to valuation, it's worth what somebody is prepared to pay for it. To me, the watch is unusual with particular reference to the dial and watch size but would of been far more interesting if it were 18 size.
Hopefully there are more knowledgeable guys on the forum that can assist. It's probably worth having it professionally looked at and valued.
Not to avoid the issue of value totally. I would guess the value to be £200 to £350 but a professional, cognizant of the present market place would be able to help much more.

Sent from my SM-T585 using Tapatalk

Posted
4 hours ago, mcass said:

Great info. I know very little about pocket watches. Any idea how much a piece like this is worth? I haven't really been able to find anything to compare it to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I did quick look on the bay for similar sold watch, prices vary greatly, overall condition is most important, the case is worn with brassing, dial is cracked, (but still beautiful) and you didn't mention if watch is working, also important in terms of value, add in number of movements mfg. (scarcity). On the good side the movement is beautifully damaskseened and the regulator looks to be pretty unique, Original pricing is on about page 16 in this link

https://books.google.com/books?id=8fQ3AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq="The+Perfected+American+Watch"&hl=en&ei=yxLwTIrtI4OB8gaY4K3DDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q&f=false

I'm not an expert but in current condition ~$75-$100 USD, that's based on sold similar watches and of course condition. You can search NAWCC website for more info. They won't discuss value on this site, FYI

Hope that helps.

Dave

  • Like 1
Posted

Get somebody to look at the watch. Preferably an Auctioneer. Don't recommend Ebay. Would say I've seen worn out basic Walthams sell on bay for the price WileyDave quoted.
I made the assumption the watch is working ?
If your friend is thinking of selling, a specialist auction would be a better place. If your friend is offered or only reaches $75 to $100. Tell your friend to KEEP IT !
My impression is that people will buy any old rubbish on the bay upto about £70. Then it becomes harder. But what do I know[emoji4]

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

  • Like 1
Posted

I've just looked on ebay and found something similar. It's obviously a ladies watch. With diamond in centre of the case. Which is probably only a diamond chip of little value ? The case is gold plated.
The seller is asking £385. Doesn't mean he will get that price though !

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Posted
6 hours ago, digginstony said:

Get somebody to look at the watch. Preferably an Auctioneer. Don't recommend Ebay. Would say I've seen worn out basic Walthams sell on bay for the price WileyDave quoted.

Right you are digginstony, I used the bay as gauge for similar watches or how much I should pay for a particular watch, by no means does this make it a "worth" this much :), I've always gone by worth, as how much someone is willing to pay for it! Most, (not all) sellers when it comes to pwatches inflate their prices, because they don't want to take the time to research or they really believe someone will pay asking price

Hoping Dave C member will chime in, I know he has more experience in these.

Posted
Right you are digginstony, I used the bay as gauge for similar watches or how much I should pay for a particular watch, by no means does this make it a "worth" this much [emoji4], I've always gone by worth, as how much someone is willing to pay for it! Most, (not all) sellers when it comes to pwatches inflate their prices, because they don't want to take the time to research or they really believe someone will pay asking price

Hoping Dave C member will chime in, I know he has more experience in these.


I've never been successful at gauging prices! They vary so much at auction.
I've seen an empty size 16 case sell on the bay for £100 ! Then an identical case sell a few weeks later for £30.

Collectors may love this watch or think it feminine and for its size hate it. Who knows I don't.
When I was collecting I had a figure in mind and wouldn't be tempted to go above it.
As to the condition and being original. This would take close inspection and even then would only be a point of view, due to the nature of the trade.
It could of been re-cased or the dial added later from an earlier watch.


Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Posted
3 hours ago, digginstony said:

When I was collecting I had a figure in mind and wouldn't be tempted to go above it.
As to the condition and being original. This would take close inspection and even then would only be a point of view, due to the nature of the trade.

That's what I do, keeps me out of trying to get something for less than it's really worth. But by doing the legwork and researching production numbers and what they've sold for, I can get better idea how much to pay. Because of the volume of American watch companies produced, there are tons of movements that just aren't worth the effort to collect, sure they are good to fiddle with and repair, but there were so many produced just not that valuable. (obviously higher jeweled watches >17 are more desirable and command higher prices) Unless you can really be sure that hands, dial, case and movement are all original, (to the watch), then it's a guesstimate at best.:biggrin: 

It's a tough thing to gauge from US to Euro/UK.

  • Like 1

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • One of the problems with trying to Photograph Phils things are that his enjoyment was building these things so they tended to E falls on what will see if I can find some earlier pictures or any pictures I wasn't even sure because I was looking for that specific picture for somebody else and even it got the last version and that would have been the last version. You will note that he put the indexing on something that he could unscrew it or whatever and it can slide back out of the way so the rest of the lathe can be used as a lathe. With the lathe cut are actually coming down from the top I was there once where he demonstrated how to cut a pivot with the setup it was really beautiful. Older set up if I remember it's not a worm gear assembly in the thing in between the stepping motor and the holding block I believe this particular one was like a 100 to 1 gear ratio. Earlier version with watchmaker's lathe. Even looks like he is the watchmakers bed and then switch to something he made. Then I do have other pictures and things of the rotary stage in use. In the raw so if you tube videos here is an example of one were somebody's mounting a three jaw chuck. At one time there were available on eBay they were not cheap but if you're patient like I was I found one cheap on eBay. After you watch the video it look at his other videos he is a whole bunch of other examples of the same rotary stage. That I do know there are other pictures examples and possibly videos you just have to track them down. One of the minor issues of finding this particular tech sheet for the unit is I believe it was a custom manufacturer and the company change their name but I remember the new name here's a link to the company https://www.ondrivesus.com/rino-mechanical-components                
    • Escapement adjusting always interesting and depending upon the reference always confusing. Okay maybe it's not always confusing but it does lead to confusion. I have a PDF below it's actually a whole bunch of separate stuff including a hand out that came from a lecture that's on you tube. Then from that we get this image Consequences of doing things especially if you do things out of order or you do things for the wrong reason. Oh and even if the watches working I made the mistake one so showing my boss how tweaking the banking pins on a full plate on the timing machine made the amplitude get better and now he thinks that's what they're for and I don't think a fully grasped exactly what horn clearance means. Consequence of doing things. Notice what it says about opening and closing the banking pins and total lock? So yes I've had that on a full plate where it won't unlock at all and that's the banking pins or a combination of things basically. So banking pins unfortunately get moved. One of the ways to tell if it's been moved is the look straight down at the end of the fork with the balance wheel removed. Power on the fork push at the one side look at it push it to the other side also look at it and compare anything with the center reference the balance jewel and see if both sides of the same. No guarantee after the same there in the right place but at least are the same typically when people play with things one side will be way off from the other because they had no idea what they were doing at all because of course it's a full plate and you really have to paying attention and even then there's still hard to do. Then the other thing that comes up like it shows below is people often adjust the banking pins to do all those other things as opposed to horn clearance which is all that it's therefore and maybe bonus Guard pin clearance although you're supposed to deal with the guard pin is a separate thing like single roller gets bent in Or out or sometimes physically gets moved in and out. Some full plates older escapement's typically pallet forks held together with screws and you can actually unscrew and move the entire assembly in Or out more complications to deal with.     Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf
    • If he was much younger and some sort of sports player it wouldn't be a problem. They would be in there and doing surgery and he'd be back on the field in no time. Unfortunately when you get older little things are bad and big things can be really bad so not good at all.
    • Where I work everything incoming watches whatever detailed descriptions are taken entered into a computer program and photograph of each item. Then ideally although it depends on who's doing the paperwork detailed descriptions can be quite good other times there lacking. Like I really like it with pocket watches if they would record the serial number it avoids confusion later on. Then when watch repairs are completed that is also entered in. It's one of the amusements I learned when I was in school instructor had a shop and commented about the important aspect of keeping detailed records of repairs. Because oftentimes a customer who got a new crystal will come back later on when the watch doesn't work and expect you to fix the entire watch for free. Then you can remind them that they just got a crystal. Strangely enough that keeps coming up or occasionally comes up where I work now. One of the problems of using the service marks on the case is that in the case of pocket watches oftentimes that's not the original case. Then case marks? What I was doing warranty work for a company I used to describe a code number in the back of the case and it would tell me the next time I see the watch that basically what I did I made no attempt at keeping track of customers because we had literally thousands of them I think they sold 30,000 of these watches and they would come back by the hundreds because they had a lifetime warranty. Yes that's a story all of itself but I would put a code number that would reference what was done to the watch the last time and think I had a date in there somehow so it did tell a story if you knew the code. Another shop I once worked out the number would reference the page in the book. So other than knowing we had been in there you would have no idea what happened because you have to go look at the page in the book to see what happened. Then the problem of how you examine a watch you should examine the watch in detail every single time to avoid complications. Although on vintage watches and this is a of amusement I have at work when people ask something and I say of the watches done when it leaves. This is because on vintage oftentimes problems won't show up until the watches much farther into the repair like it's now running and you discover things that you can't discover before because it wasn't running to discover them that also become sometimes difficult to have exact rigid prices are estimates of repairs or in the case of a pocket watch you may not find out if a casing problem to later on when you case it up in the watches running. I was just thinking for all those people that would like to leave a mark maybe you should learn to do what some of the past watchmakers did? Leave a mark but leave it in such a way that no one will ever find it? Typically not done for repair purposes but done for other reasons like identifying it's legit. I have a friend with a Gruen watch and one of the Roman numbers the bottom line that just looks like a line under extreme magnification actually says Gruen watch company or something equivalent. So here's a link showing how to mark your watch without being seen although that's not the actual title. So if you can learn micro engraving you can engrave the watch someplace probably just about any place you just have to remember where you put it. https://cnaluxury.channelnewsasia.com/obsessions/how-to-prove-if-watches-are-authentic-secret-signatures-182516  
    • I have acquired a Citizen Leopard 36000 watch. My reason for purchasing it was my desire to own a timepiece with a 36,000 BPH movement, and the price was reasonable. Another motivating factor was gaining hands-on experience with the mechanism. The watch is in good condition, but I intend to fully disassemble it for maintenance. First and foremost, if anyone has prior experience with this particular model, I would greatly appreciate their insights. I do not have access to Citizen’s specialized lubricants and will need to use the ones available to me, such as 9010, 8000, and 8300 grease. Additionally, I do not possess the appropriate oil for the pallet jewels and will only be able to clean them.
×
×
  • Create New...