Jump to content

Beat error


BUSAKAZ

Recommended Posts

Hi all, I'm a bit confused as to why the beat error is so far out when the pallet fork is dead center to the banking pins and the balance is at rest under no tension, can someone please explain.

thanks kaz

Ps I can't seem to regulate the rate neither,I have demagnetize it three times and the hair spring isn't touching the cock neither.

WP_20161116_17_26_28_Pro.jpgWP_20161116_17_34_04_Pro.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, frenchie said:

Just a guess: Low amplitude and running fast = not enough power to the train (or lots of power being wasted, ie dirty jewel holes)...

 

it's had a new main spring and the train runs freely without the Pallet fork in, a bit confused :wacko:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think beat error is your least problem at the moment. 5ms can be better, but is not an issue.

No wonder regulating is difficult: your hairspring is not concentric in the pins area, and it has a kink at the regulator pins. Also the pins are too wide apart, space must be minimal here (unfortunately this will speed up the rate).

Yes, as mentioned before, amplitude is much too low (which esc. angle did you choose?)

Regards, 

Frank

Edited by praezis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, praezis said:

I think beat error is your least problem at the moment. 5ms can be better, but is not an issue.

No wonder regulating is difficult: your hairspring is not concentric in the pins area, and it has a kink at the regulator pins. Also the pins are too wide apart, space must be minimal here (unfortunately this will speed up the rate).

Yes, as mentioned before, amplitude is much too low (which esc. angle did you choose?)

Regards, 

Frank

do the pins have to be nearly touching at the bottom then ?

it's on automatically and came up at 52deg as do all of my pocket watches, where do you see the kink after the pins or between the pins and the stud.

thanks for your help

 

 

 

 

WP_20161116_19_52_31_Pro.jpg

Edited by BUSAKAZ
pic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

the kink I see in your 2nd picture, maybe I am wrong.

Pins are better, but still not close enough - and they should be parallel. Difficult with these rather thick pins, I know. But these are subtleties that you can fix later.

Main issue is the low amplitude.

52° is ok for nearly all wrist watches. Pocket watches have smaller angles, about 40°. Bad news: Your amplitude is probably 20% lower than your display shows, as the esc. angle was set too high.

Regards, Frank

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, praezis said:

Hi,

the kink I see in your 2nd picture, maybe I am wrong.

Pins are better, but still not close enough - and they should be parallel. Difficult with these rather thick pins, I know. But these are subtleties that you can fix later.

Main issue is the low amplitude.

52° is ok for nearly all wrist watches. Pocket watches have smaller angles, about 40°. Bad news: Your amplitude is probably 20% lower than your display shows, as the esc. angle was set too high.

Regards, Frank

I don't think they should be parallel if you look at the second picture at the top of the pins there is a clear gap, I will get them closer and see what it does then, I can't see a kink though and I will also try 40 deg.

thanks for your help

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have noticed this too i.e. the roller impulse pin seems in the middle at rest but when running & put on a timing machine the beat goes out. I guess there is some sort of uneven bounce happens & that is what throws it out but i am not sure & I have just adjusted the beat. 

The beat error on your watch will have to be adjusted by moving the hairspring collet & Mark has a vid on this. The rate is adjusted buy in effect shortening or lengthening the hairspring. This works by the spring vibrating in-between the regulating pins so if the rate is not changing then the spring is not in-between the pins. It is worth noting that at rest the hairspring should be in the middle of the regulating pins & not touching them. 

PS. Looking at your pics there does not seem a lot wrong with the hairspring shape. Another thought is it a new hairspring fitted ? if so it could be too short.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a video how to determine the correct lift angle. You have to notice the amplitude and set the lift angle on the timing machine until it shows the real amplitude.

It seemed to me that the overcoil is higher at the regulating pins than the stud. This wont allow the overcoil to wobble between the pins and bend the hairspring. Try to elevate the stud a bit.

Check also again that the overcoil is not touching the cock. Just twist the balance to ~300 deg. amplitude with a toothpick. This is suspicious, since YOu have both low amplitude and beat error despite the properly positioned impulse jewel. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, szbalogh said:

I have a video how to determine the correct lift angle. You have to notice the amplitude and set the lift angle on the timing machine until it shows the real amplitude.

It seemed to me that the overcoil is higher at the regulating pins than the stud. This wont allow the overcoil to wobble between the pins and bend the hairspring. Try to elevate the stud a bit.

Check also again that the overcoil is not touching the cock. Just twist the balance to ~300 deg. amplitude with a toothpick. This is suspicious, since YOu have both low amplitude and beat error despite the properly positioned impulse jewel. 

top man I will give it a go as soon as I can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, clockboy said:

Determining the lift angle & setting the timegrapgher to correct setting will only make a marginal difference to the readings. I very rarely bother to adjust from the standard of 52 deg.

you are correct changing the lift angle made absolutely no effect but what I have done is closed the pins in a bit more and I had the train bridge to tight so slackened it off and the amplitude has now shot up.

WP_20161118_17_13_21_Pro.jpg

WP_20161118_16_28_44_Pro.jpgWP_20161118_16_29_35_Pro.jpg

also I straightened up the spring from the pins to the stud so I am now thinking how to get the rate down and I is definitely not touching the cock, but it is getting better and it is still the original hairspring.

still need help, it a southbend 411 12size but if anyone knows the lift angle that would be good.

thanks for your help guys

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the bridge is causing the hairspring not to swing either the bridge is bent or the balance staff is too long (marginally).
I strongly suspect a new hairspring & balance has been fitted but the hairspring is just to short. There just does not seem enough of the hairspring remaining to reduce by 130 s/d. This PDF explains better than I could.

Hairspring choosing.pdf

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, clockboy said:

If the bridge is causing the hairspring not to swing either the bridge is bent or the balance staff is too long (marginally).
I strongly suspect a new hairspring & balance has been fitted but the hairspring is just to short. There just does not seem enough of the hairspring remaining to reduce by 130 s/d. This PDF explains better than I could.

Hairspring choosing.pdf

 

 

I think I have found the problem, if you look at the hairspring at three o'clock the spring is touching what do you think.

WP_20161118_19_31_26_Pro.jpgWP_20161118_19_32_45_Pro.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, you have not mentioned whether or not the movement has been fully cleaned and lubricated? 

A reading like yours generally points to the escapement, in which case a full examination of the balance assembly (bridge, staff, balance wheel truth and poise, roller table, impulse jewel, hairspring, collet, regulator pins, stud), pallets, lever, escape wheel and jewels must be conducted to locate the error. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, JMElam said:

Also, you have not mentioned whether or not the movement has been fully cleaned and lubricated? 

A reading like yours generally points to the escapement, in which case a full examination of the balance assembly (bridge, staff, balance wheel truth and poise, roller table, impulse jewel, hairspring, collet, regulator pins, stud), pallets, lever, escape wheel and jewels must be conducted to locate the error. 

fully cleaned and oiled with moebius 8000

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Same goes for me, i like to pull broken things apart to fix them, it forces me to think more about how they work. If i take something new and working apart and then break it then thats just gonna pee me off.
    • VWatchie, I remember you saying you have picked up a few bargains on that site.  
    • Understood OH , i just thought i would ask.
    • Your original balance can be poised by adjusting the balance screws. The replacement can't and it is cheaper to make.    
    • OK, let me try and expand on why I think this is right (but maybe misleading at the same time). Wikipedia has a good explanation of surface tension, which is where I got most of the ideas below. The cohesion of the liquid molecules binds them together into the most compact form possible. If there are no external forces acting, this is a sphere. Surface tension is the combined effect of the cohesion between molecules on the surface with others on the surface, as well as the cohesion to molecules just under the surface, causing contraction and the formation of a denser "skin". The way a droplet of a liquid forms on a solid surface is determined by the strength of this cohesive force relative to the adhesive force between the liquid molecules and the surface material. If cohesion >> adhesion, you get a droplet. If cohesion is similar to adhesion, the liquid tends to spread out on the surface and creep away from its original location. Oil doesn't have the same high surface tension that water does, so it is not going to form a really rounded droplet on any surface in the way that water will "bead" on wax. This is where my earlier statement is misleading, but it is still exactly the same principles at work. Drops of oil on an epilamed surface are not going to run off in all directions at the lightest provocation. What the epilame does, I think, is reduce the adhesive force to the surface somewhat, making the weak cohesive force of the oil molecules more effective. The result is less tendency of the oil to spread out and creep, and more tendency to stick together as a cohesive mass. I don't think epilame has any effect on surface tension. That is a property of the liquid and is determined solely by the cohesive forces between the liquid molecules. I also don't think the epilame makes the liquid "stick" to where it is applied. The oil adheres ("sticks") more strongly to a non-treated surface than to a surface treated with epilame. This is why the epilame needs to be removed from the contact surfaces by running dry for a short period. The oil then sticks more readily to the local contact surfaces, where the epilame layer is worn away, than to the surrounding area. The oil sticks together, and is thereby anchored in place as a single body. Interestingly, reducing the adhesion of the oil to the solid surfaces will also reduce capillary action, which is what we rely on if we don't use epilame. Another reason to make sure the epilame is worn away from the spot you want the oil to stay put.    
×
×
  • Create New...