Watch Cannot Be Put Into Beat

[omgiv]

Hey Guys,

I have a watch currently on my bench that I have had a heck of a time with.  When I first got it, the amplitude was barely 180 degrees in the flat positions and I noticed that the end shake of the escape wheel and balance were way too big.  To the point that the escape wheel was almost out of the jewel in dial up position.

 

The watch is one of those Asian clones and I have a feeling that the answer to my question will lie there.  After adjusting the end shakes and adjusting a couple of other things, the amplitude is almost acceptable.  The movement is pretty dirty so I am hoping that will improve more with a good cleaning.  The problem is I cannot get the movement in beat.  I have spent a huge amount of time with my timing machine trying to figure out what is happening but it will not get into beat no matter how Inmove the stud holder.

Have any of you run across this before or have any recommendations as to what to check?  Thanks in advance!

[szbalogh]

Pretty strange. I would first do the cleaning and if still not working start to manipulate the original settings. 

What movement is it? Can you please post a picture of it?

[clockboy]

Clean first & during dis-assembly you might well see what is amiss. 

[omgiv]

Thank you for the replies.  It is very strange indeed and the first time this has ever happened.  I took the advice given and took it apart and cleaned it.  I will start the reassembly process when I get some time.  While disassembling, I didn't notice anything that was glaringly obvious.  I checked to make sure the pallets were secured to the fork as well as both the roller jewel and roller to the balance.  I thought that it might be my timer so I threw on another movement and it was just fine.  

 

This is one of those 3135 clone movements.  They are very, very, very poorly finished.  I will see if I can get  picture.  Thanks! 

[clockboy]

As you state strange. When you move the regulator arm what you are doing in effect is to move the hairspring position which in turn moves the position of the roller jewel. I would remove the pallet folk & assembly and inspect with good magnification to see if roller jewel is in the middle of the banking pins and if it,s position moves when you move the regulator arm.

[omgiv]

I think that you mean the stud holder but I get what you mean.  I will check that out when I start reassembling.  Thanks!

[clockboy]

I do not mean the stud. Absolute dead in beat is when the roller jewel is absolutely in the middle IE when the watch is running it moves exactly the same amount in both directions. This is what you need to check & check that when you move the regulator arm the jewel is moving either clockwise or anti clockwise. If when you move the regulator arm this does not happen then the roller jewel/balance staff is loose or the hairspring is moving in it,s end stud.

[omgiv]

I know what being in beat is and in my experience moving the stud is what moves the position of the roller jewel.  The regulator is used to change the effective length of the hairspring to either speed up or slow down the movement.  Perhaps we are using different terminology?

 

I do appreciate the help though.

Edited September 17, 2016 by omgiv

[jdm]

What's the amplitude and timegrapher pattern now? Please post pictures. If below acceptable standards it's normal that it can't be put in beat and behaves strangely. 

[omgiv]

The movement has been cleaned but I haven't had the time to reassemble yet.  I will post some pictures of the timer once I do.

Before I cleaned it, the amplitude was around 255-260 in the flat positions.  I am wondering if there could be extraneous noise throwing off the timer.  If that were the case though, wouldn't it also be throwing off the rate and amplitude readings?

Thanks!

[jdm]

  On 9/17/2016 at 12:05 PM, omgiv said:

The movement has been cleaned but I haven't had the time to reassemble yet.  I will post some pictures of the timer once I do.

Expand  

If it's still in parts how you can say it can't be regulated?

[omgiv]

I'm not following.  I am saying that once I start the reassembly I will double check that moving the stud holder does indeed move the position of the balance in relation to the fork position.  I will also see what the trace looks like on the timer once it has been reassembled and oiled and take some pictures of it is not better.

[jdm]

  On 9/17/2016 at 12:26 PM, omgiv said:

I'm not following.  I am saying that once I start the reassembly I will double check that moving the stud holder does indeed move the position of the balance in relation to the fork position.  I will also see what the trace looks like on the timer once it has been reassembled and oiled and take some pictures of it is not better.

Expand  

I'm only saying that you should wait to have it reassembled and running before saying that it can't be put in beat as per thread title.

[omgiv]

Absolutely.  Sorry if there was any confusion.

[omgiv]

Hey Guys,

 

Sorry I haven't posted before now.  It has been a busy week.  After cleaning it and reassembling the movement, it was still presenting with the same issue.  I removed the pallet fork and moved the stud holder to ensure that the roller jewel was indeed moving.  It was.  Then as I was playing with it on my timer, I happened to press down on the balance jewels and it miraculously started running in beat.  I slightly bent the shock spring to apply more pressure and that seemed to have help.  Anyway, thought I would share the answer to a very strange situation.  Thanks again for all of the help and ideas.

[jdm]

No it's not strange. Something is not alogned or the end shake is incorrect, when you press somewhere you temporarily brings things into a batter condition. It happened to me too with Seiko but I wouldn't then know what to do to fix things permanently.

[omgiv]

Well, it is strange for me.  That is the first time I have even had to "adjust" a shock spring. The brass used for the springs seem very weak and they are pretty easy to distort.  The the end shake on the balance is good.  I ended up having to adjust a good bit of the movement to make it right (escape, pallet, and balance end shake).  The hole for the cap jewel could be a hair too big for the balance staff, but that is all that I saw out of the ordinary. 

[jdm]

Very good then. Remember you're working on a movement produced with cheapness being the first objective. Nor surprise that tolerances are poor and materials are dodgy. That's  the reason why practically no watchmaker wants to work on them, results are unpredictable.

[omgiv]

You are right about that.  Poor tolerances and quality control.

 

[jdm]

Thanks for the picture BTW. I never thought of placing the movement with the holder on the timegrapher!

[Geo]

  On 9/25/2016 at 10:13 PM, jdm said:

Thanks for the picture BTW. I never thought of placing the movement with the holder on the timegrapher!

Expand  

It's sometimes the only way when working with small movements.  I've also used the "movement holder" as a case holder for holding small cocktail watches in the timegrapher.