Balance Staff replacement methodology

[Simeon]

I am interested in understanding what the minimum effective method is for removing balance staffs without damaging the balance wheel arms.  I have seen the use of a Platax tool, a balance staff remover, a Horia jewelling tool and a lathe to cut the rivet.  I have also seen people get lucky and just punch out the staff with a staking set.

What do you all do to remove balance staffs safely?

 

A Balance Staff Remover

Using a Horia tool

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

Cut the hub off not the rivet with a graver, quick and simple.

[Klassiker]

This has been discussed in great detail several times already. All of the methods you mention carry some level of risk.

If you search for @praezis posts on the subject, you can find convincing arguments why cutting off the hub (not the rivet) is the safest method.

Edited 4 hours ago by Klassiker

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Cut the hub off not the rivet with a graver, quick and simple.

13 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

you can find convincing arguments why cutting off the hub (not the rivet) is the safest method.

This is the best option - if you have a lathe.  For those of us without, I use a Balance Staff Remover as shown in your pic. Using this, I have not seen any damage to a balance.  Rolex recommend just pushing it out as their balance arms are quite hard.

But, as @Klassiker suggests, do a search of the forum and you will find plenty of discussion.

[Simeon]

9 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

This is the best option - if you have a lathe.  For those of us without, I use a Balance Staff Remover as shown in your pic. Using this, I have not seen any damage to a balance.  Rolex recommend just

Yes, being lathe deprived is a problem that I have, so obviously interested in solutions that don't require one. 

The Balance Staff removers are interesting. I wasn't sure if you could get them in a size to suit a typical wristwatch movement, I thought they were more suited for pocket watch balances. 

I was surprised to see a staff just pushed out with a Horia tool but I guess if you get a very close fitting stump it would potentially do the same amount of damage as a remover (the only difference being that the remover seems to clamp down the cross arms of the balance immediately surrounding the staff). I did read somewhere that Rolex (who apparently recommend this) balance wheels are harder than others. This is maybe one to try on already scrap balance. 

[mikepilk]

5 minutes ago, Simeon said:

The Balance Staff removers are interesting. I wasn't sure if you could get them in a size to suit a typical wristwatch movement, I thought they were more suited for pocket watch balances. 

The same tool will work on all sizes of balance. You sit the staff in the correct size hole in the staking set base. The tool them clamps the balance arms, and then the punch pushes the staff out.

[nickelsilver]

The pushing out method in modern times comes from Rolex, and they have specifically made staffs to accommodate it. I believe Elgin did something similar in the past.

 

If you don't have a lathe, then a Platax or something like the K&D tool that holds the balance arms firmly down is the best. Still a risk of opening the hole. If you have a monometallic balance (no steel) you can soak in a saturated solution if aluminum to dissolve the staff. This won't harm the balance, and is preferable to punching out.

[Simeon]

4 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

If you have a monometallic balance (no steel) you can soak in a saturated solution if aluminum to dissolve the staff. This won't harm the balance, and is preferable to punching out.

That's another interesting solution. Thanks for that. 

Aren't the Elgin staffs specifically designed to be a friction fit rather than riveted?

[Neverenoughwatches]

40 minutes ago, Simeon said:

That's another interesting solution. Thanks for that. 

Aren't the Elgin staffs specifically designed to be a friction fit rather than riveted?

The rolex...the rivets made to brake away easily, probably what you saw happening with the Horia tool.

It's not just about bending the balance wheel arms , which seems to be what these accessories prevent. Potential staff hole deformation....over one or many staff changes. Then we have Chronoglide popping out staffs with a staking set and proudly showing a wobbly wheel. ??

Removing the staff is just one part of the process of replacement. Staking on a new one is just as easy if not more so to mess up.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Simeon said:

I was surprised to see a staff just pushed out with a Horia tool but I guess if you get a very close fitting stump it would potentially do the same amount of damage as a remover (the only difference being that the remover seems to clamp down the cross arms of the balance immediately surrounding the staff). I did read somewhere that Rolex (who apparently recommend this) balance wheels are harder than others. This is maybe one to try on already scrap balance.

As others have pointed out we discussed this subject in great lengths multiple times on multiple discussion groups.

Then we have a subject that has too many variables and generalizations that make all the different things seem like one common removing staffs when it's not. There are variety of balance wheels specifically designed to be hard enough to withstand knocking or pushing a staff out. Rolex has one that the only way the staff is coming out is by pushing it out enough pressure is applied the river breaks with a very satisfying pop. This is because they hairspring cannot be removed until the staff is pushed out through. Then of course Rolex has a nice set of tools just for this purpose.

A variety watch companies like Elgin made a balance wheels specifically designed to be hard enough to withstand knocking the staff have. For instance that principle is applied with jeweling tool you mention and here's the complete article down below that explains the procedure. Then of course there are variety watch companies Elgin And Hamilton that specifically designed balance staffs designed to be knocked out because the riveting shoulder is supposed to break. That of course would be the original staffs and probably the aftermarket do not have such features.

 

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

If you don't have a lathe, then a Platax or something like the K&D tool that holds the balance arms firmly down is the best. Still a risk of opening the hole.

One of the problems with all of these tools would be the balance staff itself and of course whatever the balance wheel is made of. Personally I like the rule of if you're knocking the staff out and you gently tap with the hammer and it doesn't just pop out then you do not drive it out you do have to use a lathe. Because for variety of reasons staffs that are perhaps over riveted not quite the right size soft balance arms etc. driving a staff out that doesn't really want to come out it's not your best interest to do that.

 

2 hours ago, Simeon said:

Aren't the Elgin staffs specifically designed to be a friction fit rather than riveted?

A variety of American companies used friction fit staffs. For instance here's an example of Waltham

Here's something interesting from Hamilton a specific type of 992 with a specific type of hairspring. Normally the Hamilton friction staff's do not have a groove to indicate such. Such as the Hamilton 992B or the Hamilton deck watch but they only have one staff which is friction. This particular staff has been marked because if you read carefully I suspect originally it might not have had a friction staff this was basically an upgrade. I know I've seen in the staffing assortments the blued hubs as a replacement components. 

 

Then I'm attaching a PDF of Hamilton's thoughts on replacing balance staffs. Notice either the hub where the river can be cut away they don't have a preference it's whatever you like. Plus they mention the staff that is designed to break away. Although I have a suspicion you'll probably never see one of those as it would have to be an original staff and I suspect none of the after markets would have that feature.

Hamilton technical data number 129 replacement of broken balance staffs.pdf