Loose roller table

[dnhb]

In trying to re-install a balance assembly in a small pocket watch I found that the roller table was rotating on its arbour. I have tried pressing it using an appropriate stake but to no avail. Under magnification I think I can see shellac around the area where it sits on the boss of the balance wheel (I can't get a clear enough picture to show this). Is this in fact how such tables are secured or are they just a friction fit? I'd be grateful for advice.

[Nucejoe]

I be concerned if this roller table belongs ! 

 Timegrapher will ask,  where did you get this roller table or balance staff from?  

Regs

[JohnR725]

The roller table is supposed to be held on by friction. If there is shellac under the roller table it might indicate that an improper repair had occurred prior to this as it would not be held in place with shellac. Sometimes overenthusiastic people re-shellacking the roller jewel will get shellac where it's not supposed to be.

Then the picture of your roller it looks kind of damage? It doesn't quite look right it looks like somebody held with a pair of pliers or something?

Then your balance wheel has limited quantity of screws? Not necessarily a problem but an indication of perhaps with the other things a prior bad repair perhaps as a guess.

 

[caseback]

The problem/challenge with these things is that you don't know what brilliant solutions previous watch-tinkerers have come up with. Are all parts even "original"? Did the watch run ok (-ish) when you got it?

One possibility is that a replacement staff has been fitted and turned out to be a loose fit. 

Some of this has been discussed in the following thread:

 

Edited Monday at 06:14 AM by caseback

[mikepilk]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then your balance wheel has limited quantity of screws?

This suggests that the hairspring may have been changed.  It certainly needs some straightening.

It may just be the lighting, but it looks like the pivot is out of shape.

[dnhb]

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I be concerned if this roller table belongs ! 

 Timegrapher will ask,  where did you get this roller table or balance staff from?  

Regs

It's from a 1" diameter pocket watch the dial of which says "West End Watch Co."; "Queen Anne"; "Bombay Calcutta". A local Charity shop has asked me to put it into saleable condition....

[Nucejoe]

 Unlikely to run happy, you will see  low amplitude, hindered oscilation, and awful timegrapher display.

 Cheaper to replace this balance complete with a new one.

Regs

 

 

[dnhb]

12 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Cheaper to replace this balance complete with a new one.

I can't see how that would be cheaper as I help my local charity shops on a pro bono basis. But of more interest to me would be to understand how to work out the specification of a replacement balance given that the chance of being able to order the part from the company or OEM must be effectively zero.....

[AndyGSi]

32 minutes ago, dnhb said:

I can't see how that would be cheaper as I help my local charity shops on a pro bono basis. But of more interest to me would be to understand how to work out the specification of a replacement balance given that the chance of being able to order the part from the company or OEM must be effectively zero.....

It all depends on the movement but if you've got to get a new arbor then you'll need to know that anyway.

[Nucejoe]

11 hours ago, dnhb said:

 interest to me would be to understand how to work out the specification of a replacement balance.

 You know, building a complete balance complete out of all new parts takes more work than just assembly .

 Most west end watches were powered by FHF movements, some by AS and other movement makes as well , some pieces of the  Secundus collection even came  with longines movements.

 ----- In case you do not know this movement's caliber No, put up some pix in IDENTIFY THIS MOVEMENT ----  . subforum,  one pic of the keyless would do. 

 Material houses such as cousins.uk are likely to carry the parts you need. 

 Providing serviced properly and a simple restoration this watch is likely to fetch $250 upwards on ebay.

 No shortage of help and advice on WRT and  by the end of this thread we enjoy seeing your watch run happy. 

Regs

 

 

[dnhb]

Thanks Nucejoe, you've encouraged me to think it may, after all, be worthwhile trying to find out more about the watch & availability of parts so I've contacted the WEW Co. via it's website.

On 5/5/2025 at 8:55 AM, mikepilk said:

This suggests that the hairspring may have been changed.  It certainly needs some straightening.

It may just be the lighting, but it looks like the pivot is out of shape.

It *is* the lighting - & poor photography! I'd moved the stud to the other side temporarily which affected how the hairspring lay. However, I've now removed the table & can confirm that there's an untidy splodge of shellac underneath which I assume must have caused a depth issue.If I can clean it up I thought I might try some red threadlocker in the table's 'tube' to secure it to the arbour....

[JohnR725]

Now

On 5/4/2025 at 3:45 PM, dnhb said:

balance assembly in a small pocket watch

One of the things that's always helpful when asking for help for any watch would be which watch exactly are we talking about? Because the definition of small pocket watch doesn't exactly do it for us. Do we have a name of who made the movement and typically that's not the name on the dial.

 

On 5/5/2025 at 2:41 AM, Nucejoe said:

Cheaper to replace this balance complete with a new one.

21 hours ago, dnhb said:

I can't see how that would be cheaper as I help my local charity shops on a pro bono basis. But of more interest to me would be to understand how to work out the specification of a replacement balance given that the chance of being able to order the part from the company or OEM must be effectively zero.

I find your quote really quite fascinating?

Lacking knowledge of the movement is quite a hindrance in this discussion. Then there are companies that make balance completes for replacing in watches. No need to try to order from the manufacturer as that isn't going to happen anyway.

Then I think it would be helpful to clarify something? You're helping the charity shop I'm understanding at the extreme the lowest price to achieve what goal? So in other words all you have to do is get the watch to run for a few seconds a few minutes long enough to sell it and clear it out and make a profit correct? What I'm getting at here is were going to throw conventional watch repair practices out the window and go with whatever we need to do which means you could just Glue with whatever you have. It's not the recommended procedure but I'm interpreting were not using the recommended procedures we want to do fast quick repairs I get these things out the door correct?

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, dnhb said:

so I've contacted the WEW Co. via it's website.

If you've just messaged them through the website then I'd be very surprised if they know anything about your watch.

Would be a lot easier to just post come photos of the movement and keyless works.

[dnhb]

On 5/5/2025 at 6:44 AM, caseback said:

The problem/challenge with these things is that you don't know what brilliant solutions previous watch-tinkerers have come up with. Are all parts even "original"? Did the watch run ok (-ish) when you got it?

One possibility is that a replacement staff has been fitted and turned out to be a loose fit. 

Some of this has been discussed in the following thread:

 

The watch was a non-runner when I was asked to look at it. I'm not able to say if its components are all original. Thank you for taking the trouble to dig out the thread which I found very informative.

2 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

If you've just messaged them through the website then I'd be very surprised if they know anything about your watch.

Would be a lot easier to just post come photos of the movement and keyless works.

I thought I should try to find some details about the watch that way rather than just rely on the good people here who have already helpfully answered my original question viz: are roller tables traditionally a friction fit.

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then I think it would be helpful to clarify something? You're helping the charity shop I'm understanding at the extreme the lowest price to achieve what goal? So in other words all you have to do is get the watch to run for a few seconds a few minutes long enough to sell it and clear it out and make a profit correct? What I'm getting at here is were going to throw conventional watch repair practices out the window and go with whatever we need to do which means you could just Glue with whatever you have. It's not the recommended procedure but I'm interpreting were not using the recommended procedures we want to do fast quick repairs I get these things out the door correct?

I'm sorry if my previous posts have caused confusion. I don't charge the Charity Shop for my time or materials so neither "lowest price" nor "profit" is relevant. I will tell the shop to what condition I have been able to return the watch & advise whether I think they could hope to get a better price online rather than selling locally in declaring that condition. Naturally I aim to do work that is 'proper' - hence my question that initiated this thread - or at least reversible & explain what I have done & why. So "fast quick repairs" doesn't exactly apply either although I won't hold on to a watch beyond the point at which I'm making improvements or have the realistic prospect of doing so, for example as a result of advice I hope to receive from WRT colleagues. I do hope this clarification is helpful. Thank you for your interest.

[nevenbekriev]

The balance is not in original condition for sure, but this doesn't mean the roller is not original (or doesn't mean it is original as well). I would advice to check how the roller interacts with the pallet fork and how the balance sits in the movement and if it is positioned OK with the bearing stones, pallet fork cock and center wheel. So, just glue in some way the roller and see what You have... The next thing (if everything seems OK) is the hairspring and free oscillations test, and confirming if the oscillation frequency is correct.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Gluing the roller on is the least risky in terms of damage. There is a 3 sided stake that pushes metal into the bore enough to grip the staff.  I have also seen opposite indent marks made to the tube, much like there is on a cannon pinion. Both the tool methods could potentially damage the roller. 

[Mark]

Gluing or shellacing the roller in place should be discouraged as bad practice as, whilst it helps in the short term and gets the job done, it then becomes and issue for the next repairer down the line, or even worse, it becomes loose and negates the repair prematurely.

The most effective and professional repair would be to cut a new balance staff. The other effective repair requires a special tool as mentioned by @Neverenoughwatches - however, those tools are extremely pricey, and would rarely be used, and so hard to justify the expense.

If it is extremely loose (falls off with gravity) then it needs to be replaced, or a new balance staff cut. If its loose but holds still with gravity then I would be tempted to close the hole slightly with a hole closing punch on the staking set - quite risky but better than gluing.

[mikepilk]

Hole closing punches on something so small can be tricky - I found out the hard way how soft some roller are.

If only slightly loose I use Loctite. Not ideal, but does the job neatly and can always be removed.

[caseback]

2 hours ago, Mark said:

The other effective repair requires a special tool as mentioned by @Neverenoughwatches - however, those tools are extremely pricey, and would rarely be used, and so hard to justify the expense.

Opinions vary on the use of the 3-sided stake/punch. You can find them in a lot of vintage staking sets. I have mixed feelings about it too. You are essentially marring the roller table, which could be considered "bad practice" (and is in fact considered as such by Henry B. Fried in his excellent book "the watch repairer's manual"). If your livelihood depends on the speed of your repair and you're not hurting the value of the piece, the use of this tool could be a "quick and dirty fix". There are however more elegant solutions and Fried mentions some. I've always opted to replace the balance staff with a suitable one.

Edited 18 hours ago by caseback

[dnhb]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Gluing the roller on is the least risky in terms of damage. There is a 3 sided stake that pushes metal into the bore enough to grip the staff.  I have also seen opposite indent marks made to the tube, much like there is on a cannon pinion. Both the tool methods could potentially damage the roller. 

Yes: Caseback provided a helpful thread which mentioned such a stake & discussed the risks involved in its use on roller tables. As well as adhesives, there was also mention of wedging e.g. with Al foil. As the watch is not mine I feel I must go for one of the latter approaches, reversibly. Thank you, again.

1 hour ago, Mark said:

Gluing or shellacing the roller in place should be discouraged as bad practice as, whilst it helps in the short term and gets the job done, it then becomes and issue for the next repairer down the line, or even worse, it becomes loose and negates the repair prematurely.

The most effective and professional repair would be to cut a new balance staff. The other effective repair requires a special tool as mentioned by @Neverenoughwatches - however, those tools are extremely pricey, and would rarely be used, and so hard to justify the expense.

If it is extremely loose (falls off with gravity) then it needs to be replaced, or a new balance staff cut. If its loose but holds still with gravity then I would be tempted to close the hole slightly with a hole closing punch on the staking set - quite risky but better than gluing.

Thank you. Cutting a new balance staff is way beyond my capabilities both in terms of technique & equipment. I think I shall explore the possibility of 'wedging' the table's tube onto the staff (arbour?) & resort to Thread Locker if this doesn't work. If it were my watch I would be tempted to risk the punch if only for the learning experience while hoping that my attempts to find a replacement balance are successful......

[Neverenoughwatches]

In the other thread you will have read about inserting a hair into the hole of the roller. This would be an easy, non destructive way for a beginner to try affect a repair with a very fine synthetic paint brush thistle. The gluing idea is fiddly but can work "ok" , keep in mind how it might affect what holds the impulse pin in place if heat is required to make alterations to the roller's position afterwards. Maybe I was lucky, but a staking set I bought some years ago had 3 unused sizes of the dicussed stake. It doesn't close the hole, like a dome punch would ( trying that will crush the centre tube section ) but raises 3 notches inside the hole that which then grip the staff. Agreeing with Cees, that it feels somewhat destructive, but it did for me a few months ago. You could actually make your own very easily. Examine the tip of a 4" nail to see the 3  or 4 edges Now using something like a 3mm driver, remove the tip and form the 3 same sides, if you have a driver roller sharpener this will be easy. Now you have a stake to use on your roller by hand, take your time and be gentle !  If your stake is sharp you will be able to form the notches by pushing alone, roller will be soft.

[Mark]

2 hours ago, dnhb said:

If it were my watch I would be tempted to risk the punch if only for the learning experience while hoping that my attempts to find a replacement balance are successful

Always best to be careful and go the route you are most comfortable with.

To be clear - the word ‘punch’ does sound quite violent however, when working with rollers - and those rollers being made of soft brass - it is best to only exert downwards pressure manually, whilst gently turning it, using an extremely small dome punch or even a pointed punch (in other words - not striking the punch with a hammer).

I don't recommend doing this for the first time on a customer owned or otherwise important movement - Its definitely something to practice on though with a donor or scrap movement, it would be a great satisfying skill to learn and add to your arsenal.

Gluing is not my favourite way forward, and I won’t recommend it as it is the proverbial kicking the can down the road (hope I don’t sound snobby - I don’t mean to) but I can understand why in certain circumstances this method would be adopted.

23 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

trying that will crush the centre tube section

Absolutely true - this is the biggest risk with attempting to use a staking set to tighten the hole. Very very risky. 

25 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If your stake is sharp you will be able to form the notches by pushing alone, roller will be soft

Spot on!

[nevenbekriev]

Since we need first to see if this combination of parts (the balance + hairspring +staff + roller) will work correctly in this movement, gluing is the way to go. Then, if it is confirmed workable, may be tightening of the roller hole will be considered. Of course, making custom staff will solve all possible problems in the best way. But, is this watch worth it?

[dnhb]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

1. In the other thread you will have read about inserting a hair into the hole of the roller.

2.  make alterations to the roller's position afterwards.

3.  the dicussed stake....doesn't close the hole, like a dome punch would.... but raises 3 notches inside the hole that which then grip the staff. 

4. if you have a driver roller sharpener this will be easy.

Thank you very much for this.

Re:

1. I've so far found that this one needs something thicker than 2x kitchen foil (another suggestion in that thread)!

2. I've been checking where the roller needs to be in relation to the wheel, the hairspring stud/arm & the pallet fork to try to get it right first time.

3. Does one raise notches at both ends of the tube?

4. What is a "driver roller sharpener"?

[Neverenoughwatches]

Sharpening gauge.   I found the easiest side to do was the safety roller as the roller table laid flat on a block provided stability.  The other way requires a specific stump for the roller and pin to sit in, but may also grip better way.